🌿 When the Ache Remains — The Joy/Grief of Social Media with Lisa Olivera [BEST OF]

Amelia HrubyHello, and welcome to Off the Grid, a podcast about sharing your work and making money online without relying on social media. I'm your host, Amelia Ruby. And today on the show, I am resharing a very special best of episode in honor of this guest's brand new book, which will be out on April 28. It's coming out in just over a week. And I wanted to share this with you today to encourage you to pre order the book.

Amelia HrubySo let me tell you who it is. Let me tell you what the book is. And then you can hear a beautiful excerpt of the conversation we had together last year. So in early twenty twenty five, I had Lisa Olivera on the podcast. Lisa is a therapist, a writer and author, a mother, an adoptee, a wife, a photographer, and a lifelong learner.

Amelia HrubyShe has a very popular Instagram account with over 400,000 followers, and she has published two books, or it's about to be two books. Her first book was called already enough, a path to self acceptance. And her upcoming book is titled when the ache remains lessons on tending to the unfixable and finding beauty anyway. Last year, I talked to Lisa about her journey on Instagram, how she started her profile, the way it felt when it grew exponentially to hundreds of thousands of followers, how that did and didn't impact her business, and some of the steps she took along the way to try to support herself with this large following on social media, which is always harder than the social media platforms make us believe. And along the way, we had a conversation that I think speaks to many of the themes of her new book.

Amelia HrubyIt speaks to the tensions of social media, how unfixable it feels and why so many people are still there seeking and finding beauty. So if you're an off the grid listener who is still on social media, I think this conversation will feel especially poignant for you. But as a small business owner living and working in the unfixable detritus of capitalism, it also felt super relevant to me, even though I'm not on social media anymore. I'm really happy to reshare an excerpt of this conversation with you, and I hope that you will pre order Lisa's book. Let's help get it on the charts.

Amelia HrubyI'd love to see it there. And your pre order really makes a difference. And just in case you need one more gentle nudge to pull out your phone or open your computer and actually pre order the book, please let me read you the opening of this book that Lisa has so generously shared. Here are her words. Before we begin, I invite you to ask yourself, Can I hold myself with dignity as I take a closer look at what's here?

Amelia HrubyCan I stay open to accompaniment, to an outreach hand? Can I offer a depth of compassion to whatever arises? Can I remember what grounds me, roots me, steadies me? Can I practice a willingness to let go of what I think I'm certain of? Can I allow something new to unfold, to take shape?

Amelia HrubyCan I move with a perhaps unfamiliar gentleness? Can I locate myself in the wider web of usness? Can I let go of a destination and reorient back toward this moment? And can I devote myself to tenderness? Such beautiful questions that Lisa has posed to us, and I hope you will let them carry you away to the preorder page as you listen to our conversation today.

Amelia HrubyThank you so much for being here. Thank you to Lisa for joining me last year and for writing this brilliant book for us. Please go pre order when the ache remains anywhere you get your books. And for now, let's dive in to my favorite parts of my conversation with Lisa Olivera. Hi, Lisa.

Amelia HrubyWelcome to Off the Grid.

Lisa OliveraThank you. I am so grateful to be in conversation with you. I feel like Off the Grid has been, like, a refuge in some ways, and so it feels really sweet and just really good to get to be here with you.

Amelia HrubyThank you so much. I'd love to begin by going back to the beginning, I suppose, and ask you when you joined Instagram and any thoughts you have on, like, the earliest moments of your time there, and then how your account started to grow and become more of a public platform?

Lisa OliveraYeah. Well, I've been on Instagram as, like, a personal user since I would say, like, 2011, 2012, back when there were, like, very small amounts of filters and people were sharing photos of things they saw on their walks. And I loved using it as a photographer. It was like a mode of expression for like my very small group of friends who followed me and it was a private account. But in 2017, I started my public account and it was under the name Lisa Olivera therapy.

Lisa OliveraAnd that was the time where I was leaving, working in community based mental health and moving into private practice. And I sort of started the account for two different reasons. One was seeing how much information and access to mental health was limited to people who had the financial ability to afford those services and to to try and market my new private practice. And so I felt in stepping away from doing more community based mental health work and working in the more nonprofit space that I wanted to keep contributing and being of service to folks who couldn't necessarily afford therapy as I was stepping into private practice, into a space where I knew that it wouldn't be accessible to everyone. So I kind of started it for two different reasons.

Lisa OliveraAnd I also started it from the lens of knowing that writing is something that I've always loved to do. And and I sort of wanted to bridge my love, passion, experience of writing with my experience as a therapist just to offer nourishment and support to whoever may find the account. And I would say the first year or so my account was quite small. It was at a time where there were not very many therapists on Instagram and it was kind of like an, an up and coming thing. And I didn't quite know where it would go.

Lisa OliveraAnd I certainly did not expect it to blow up in the way that it did, but some larger accounts started finding my work and sharing it. And I wanna say in like, mid twenty eighteen, my account started growing really fast. I actually remember a specific moment. I was in my apartment in Oakland and I, like, walked into the room and said to my husband, I was like, I'm pretty sure my account got hacked. And I was crying because I was so confused why so many people were following me all of a sudden.

Lisa OliveraAnd it felt so bizarre and so like, not like me to have like, this big growing platform. It it just felt so, like, not like something I would ever have. And I remember, like, so many of these moments when my account was growing of feeling like, why is this happening to me? Like, what am I doing that's so special? And just having like a lot of really confused thoughts about being this therapist, who was all of a sudden having all these followers come to my account.

Lisa OliveraAnd my husband, like, reflects that back to me sometimes now. And I just think it's so wild because those thoughts stayed with me for so long. But I just, I remember it was really kind of like a right place, right time situation in, in that the whole Instagram therapy thing was just starting to become bigger at the time that I was sharing a lot. And in 2019, a literary agent found my page and I connected with her and then ended up selling a book proposal. And then later in 2019, I was contacted by the New York Times and was interviewed for a story that ended up being titled Instagram therapists are the new Instagram poets.

Lisa OliveraAnd I remember when that article came out, I felt like I should have had this, like, celebratory feeling of, like, recognition or pride or something. But I remember feeling so embarrassed and feeling so like, feeling like I got sort of trapped into this very small niche that I didn't even know if I wanted to be a part of almost. And it, it almost, it, it felt like now that I was in this niche of Instagram therapist, that's just what I had to keep doing. And it was such a strange experience to have all of these eyes starting to be on my work and on me, because I felt like I was still in a place where I was trying to figure out what my work was and what my therapeutic lens was and and what I wanted to offer. And it's almost like my nervous system was not ready to be, like, a widely public person when I became that.

Lisa OliveraAnd it has almost felt like I've been trying to, like, catch up to feel ready for that since. And I would say that around the time that article came out, I feel like I've been sort of questioning my role with social media since then. And my account has grown a lot since 2019. I think I had 20,000 followers when I got my or when I signed with my literary agent and I have like a little over 400,000 followers now. And my account has actually like decreased a lot the last few years because the way I've shared has shifted.

Lisa OliveraBut that's kind of where it started was, like, showing up and sharing as a therapist and then slowly, like, unraveling how I share and how I show up and what I think it means and how I want to be as a sort of public person and how I feel about social media. I feel like all of that has been in, like, the slow unraveling ever since. And now I'm in a place where I share quite differently than I did eight years ago, but I do still share on social media. And I'm in a lot of ambivalence around, like, what I want that to look like and what it's doing to my brain and to other people's brains and the role that it plays in my creativity. And, yeah, I think I'll pause there.

Lisa OliveraI feel like that was kind of

Amelia Hrubya whirlwind. How did it feel in your body as your visibility increased? And how did you navigate that for yourself as you went from someone who is sharing with a few thousand people to someone who's literally sharing with hundreds of thousands of people. Like, did you have to transform in that process?

Lisa OliveraYeah. And I guess I should say that it's not that it happens, like, out of nowhere necessarily, because I was sharing every day. I was posting all the time. I was, like, sharing quite a bit, but I definitely did not have, like, a plan or a calendar that I was sharing on or, like, it was all very sort of, like, throwing myself out there and it just sort of landed at the right time. And I think that really have had to do so much work and continue to around like what it means to be visible, what it means to have my work so visible when I've never necessarily felt comfortable having a lot of attention.

Lisa OliveraLike that's always felt sort of scary to my nervous system. And, and that's something that I've felt in my body, in my just sense of self many, many, many times over the years is the sense of almost like now that I have all these eyes on me, I have to like be careful or something, or like I have to be extra vigilant. It's hard to even put into words what it felt what it's felt like in my body because I feel like I've had so many different experiences with it. But I think I've I've had to really, like, steady myself in what matters to me and in what my values are and in why I want to share and in what I want my work to be. And that is something that has shifted and changed over the years.

Lisa OliveraLike, it feels very different now than it did in 2018 when I was sharing, like, primarily therapeutic focused content. I think the work that I've shared has changed a lot, and I think that's a result of sort of continually coming back to myself and coming back to what I want to put in the world and why. And I think that really centering that has helped me sort of be okay with almost falling off the trajectory that I think I would have kept going down if I had stayed in this Instagram therapist role. You know, I see other therapists who really like stayed true to that small role, and they've gone further and further and further in their careers as, like, these public therapist figures. And I feel like at the very instant that I could have kept going down that path, I sort of diverted and went down a different path of, like, not sharing such clear cut content and sharing more human experiences and sharing from a more human place and less of a tips and advice and self help kind of place.

Lisa OliveraAnd I think all of that has been a result of, like really getting into this practice of connecting to why I wanna share and what I wanna share and where I want that to come from in myself. And it's been an ongoing practice because I, you know, eight years later, I feel a lot more comfortable, like, having a platform. And it's also still a huge struggle for me in a lot of ways. Like, I'm still not very comfortable having, like a lot of eyes on me. It's still something that I have to sort of reckon with and tend to in myself all the time.

Lisa OliveraAnd I feel like I share like pretty openly about how I've still not quite landed in this place of like extreme comfort in having a following or a platform. But I do think that, like, finding safety in other places and finding security in other places and really reconnecting to like my values and what matters and why I want to share are all like tools and resources that I continue to have to use in different ways.

Amelia HrubyI wanna ask you a question about your work because you started your Instagram to market your private practice. But then I think over time you stopped being in private practice and like what your work was shifted, but I'm so curious, like how did your sort of the work you were doing not on social media evolve as your social media following

Speaker 2group? Mhmm.

Lisa OliveraYeah. So I I was still seeing clients in private practice up until 2021 when I got pregnant and went on maternity leave. So the whole time I was sharing publicly and working on my book, I was still seeing a small amount of clients in private practice. But when my book came out in 2022, a few months after that, I went back into private practice and just realized that I needed time away from that work to sort of recalibrate and figure out what my work is, because that question, like, what is your work is something that I feel has gotten so lost in the last eight years of sharing publicly. And I think for a long time, I had this sense of, well, I have this following.

Lisa OliveraAnd so my work is going to shift to be like creating offerings for this following because that's what people with big followings do. They create offerings and make a lot of money and like have all these followers or buy things from them. And I feel like I sort of set aside my therapeutic work to try and do that almost because I thought it was what I needed to do. Or I thought it was something that was required since I had this platform and this audience. I thought that I was supposed to let that be my work now, I guess.

Lisa OliveraAnd, you know, I tried doing that in several different ways. I created like, an evergreen course that people could buy and sold that for a while. I've done writing workshops, and I've loved doing that, but I haven't necessarily considered that, like, a full part of my work because I also haven't let myself fully dive into that. I write books. So I'm writing my second book, and that I would say is a big part of my work.

Lisa OliveraAnd then I write a newsletter on Substack and make some income there. But I really feel like because of my platform on social media and because of my resistance to looking at the ways it is actually not the work I'm wanting to do, I sort of set aside my therapeutic work for several years and it's only been in the last six to eight months or so. I would say that I've come to this realization of I've been trying to make this like public figure social media following thing work as a mode of income. And it's just never worked for me. I've never been able to make it work.

Lisa OliveraAnd I for a while thought it was because I was just doing something wrong and I just couldn't figure it out. But I have lately realized that it's just not what I want to do. And I think I've in the last year or so finally set aside this idea that just because I have this big platform that I could monetize in several different ways, like, doesn't necessarily mean that that's the work that I'm actually wanting to do. And so I'm actually going to be returning to doing one on one therapeutic work and continuing to do my writing and potentially continuing to offer workshops and, like, smaller offerings. But I think I've finally, like, let go of this idea that I'm supposed to have this like big business just because I have a big following.

Lisa OliveraAnd I've been in this ambivalent, like back and forth around that for so long that I could never fully jump into any one thing. It's almost like I could dip my toes in, but never like fully figure out what my business actually is. And I think because of the addictive qualities, honestly, of sharing on Instagram for a long time, I got confused and I thought that sharing on Instagram was my job, even though I was not making an income from that. I did not have sponsored posts. I didn't like, I've never made an income from sharing on Instagram, but I had this sense of.

Lisa OliveraLike, if I'm going to keep this audience, I need to keep sharing so that when I do figure out what my business is, I'll have this audience to share it with almost. And, you know, the things that I have sort of like landed in are writing and therapeutic work and small offerings around writing related to emotional health and well-being. And it's taken me a really long time to, like, let that be enough and to let that be okay, even though there's so much more I could potentially do with the audience that I have. Even talking about it now, I feel like the tenderness around it and the just like how much of a journey it has been to like unravel all these things I thought I was supposed to be because I had this audience and the ways that yeah. The ways that it almost pulled me away from the work that I care about the most in some ways.

Lisa OliveraIt's like the allure of it, even though it didn't actually fulfill, like, my deepest desires and needs, the allure of it, and almost like the carrot dangling in front of you that I feel like social media can feel like sometimes it can become such a distraction from the work that you're actually here to do and the, the way you actually work best and the offerings that feel most aligned. It can become such a distraction from that. And I felt that from the beginning and I feel it even more so now, like almost having this wide open opportunity and not really wanting to use it in the ways that I've been told that I should.

Amelia HrubyYeah. I think a lot of people come to question social media because it's, quote, unquote, not working for them, perhaps like I did. And I'm really appreciating hearing from you and hearing you say, like, well, it worked in the sense that I got followers here, but also that can really take you off of your path. And these sort of narratives around what it means to have a following and what one quote unquote should do with it are really strong. And I think what you said about, like, the times when it felt like sharing on social media was your job and realizing like, no, this isn't my job.

Amelia HrubyIt doesn't make me any money. It's not something I actually, like, really sought out to do. It was always kind of an impulse and then meant to be something that leads toward the thing I really want to do. I just feel like that is so I just think it's a feeling a lot of off the grid listeners can relate to. That sense of like, I wanna be a therapist or I wanna start a business or I wanna be an artist.

Amelia HrubyBut now I feel like sharing on social media is my job. Like we talked a little bit about how your business has evolved from like private practice, selling the book, having your newsletter and the paid portion of it now. But like, do you feel like you have to have your Instagram to make money at this point? Like, does it feel like an integral part of your, like, financial landscape, or does it feel more like it's still a place you like to go to be of service and, like, having the audience is, like, some other side of it? Because for what I what I hear from a lot of people is, like, if I got rid of my Instagram, I would have no business.

Amelia HrubyI couldn't make any money. But I'm just curious if it feels that way for you at this stage.

Lisa OliveraIt did for a while because I don't think that I was allowing the number of subscribers I have on Substack to be enough, or I felt like it wasn't enough. There was, like, this scarcity mindset when actually like I have 36,000 subscribers on Substack. Like that's enough for me. Like it's not 400,000 people on Instagram, but I it's only the last few months that I've been like, oh, this is actually more than enough. And I'm not even using Instagram to sell anything.

Lisa OliveraSo I don't really know. It's been a very, like, internal poll rather than a logistical and literal, like, deficit for my business. The only reason that I feel business wise that I still feel kind of tethered to Instagram is because of book sales and because of publishing stuff. Like I haven't had a conversation with my publisher around what it would mean to step away from having that as a place to share about my book. I imagine it would be different than it was when my book came out in 2022, because I have this other place of like literal subscribers to my newsletter that aren't just Instagram followers that might make it a different situation now.

Lisa OliveraBut yeah, it's definitely more of a I'm hanging on because of book and publishing stuff than like I need it for my income because it really hasn't given me very much income at all. It's given me subscribers to be able to sell a book and it's giving me like an outlet to move people toward my newsletter. But even that not a lot of people come to my Substack from Instagram. Like when I check occasionally, like most of my Substack subscribers come from other people recommending it or just from them finding it in a different place, but not from Instagram. So it's more so slowly, like trying to let go of the, the ways that I thought that I needed it.

Lisa OliveraAnd also like, honestly, trying to unravel from the addiction too. It's like, it's become such a compulsion to be there. Even when I'm not there nearly as much as I used to be. I still it's like, even when I have stepped away to take breaks, I still find myself like wondering about it and thinking about if I should share something. And it's almost like it's infiltrated, like this pocket of my brain for so long that I just don't know what my business and life and work and writing would look like without it.

Lisa OliveraAnd there's also this part of me that knows that actually, like there's so much potential room for more depth and more presence and more like service capacity if I were to like fully step away. So I'm really in that question now. And, you know, I share sometimes about my ambivalence with it and about the, just the ways that I feel like it can be trapping and the ways that it, it can make you feel like you need to be there, even though logistically, like that's actually not true a lot of the time, which I know that you share a lot about too. And yeah, I'm like really in the question now of like, if I'm not using this solely to be of service, which I try to be when I'm there, what is its role going forward in my work? And if it means being a part of this sort of system that's being created by these billionaires to, to keep people unwell, in my opinion, like I, it, it feels really tricky to stay and it also feels tricky to do all of the mostly internal work, honestly, that's required to, to step away.

Lisa OliveraThank you for sharing all of that. I was just having a conversation with a friend and voice messages this morning around

Amelia Hrubythe this sort of ambivalence and the feeling of, like, okay. I can wrap my head around maybe social media isn't the place to be. But, like, once I get there, there are so many other things I have to wrap my head around, so many other things I have to let go of, so many other threads to pull out or untangle or unweave from the life that I've built. And I think that those are all important and valuable questions. And I've seen you write a bit on the, like more addiction side of it around like when you've taken breaks from the apps and you're like, I was like, oh, this is definitely the off the grid narrative.

Amelia HrubyI'd be like, a lot of people say they leave social media and they feel amazing. And I take a break from social media and I do not feel amazing. So I'm curious, could you speak to that a little bit more? Like what happens when you take a break from the app, like, in your body, in your nervous system, or those sort of thoughts that you shared that were already coming up?

Speaker 2Mhmm.

Lisa OliveraI was thinking about this the other day, and I it feels uncomfortable to face the big hole that is there when social media is not there. It feels uncomfortable to face all the times that I check my phone, all the times that I go to scroll when I'm bored or when I'm uncomfortable or when I don't know what to do. And so it's almost like it's not uncomfortable because it's bad or wrong. It's uncomfortable because it's a mirror to my own behaviors, my own patterns, to all the time and energy that I've poured into that app for so long and all the ways that it has not given me the return that I thought it eventually would, for whatever reason, even though I never actually like went for the return either it, it makes me confront the, the ways that I have bypassed making more connections in real life for the sake of trying to connect with an audience. It makes me look at the ways it is so much easier to go there to try and get information than it is to actually go to my local library or go to a meeting for the city council or go somewhere where there's actually roots and depth and anchoring outside of this sort of pseudo connection and community that I can sometimes feel on Instagram.

Lisa OliveraAnd so I think that it's uncomfortable when I take a break because it holds up a mirror to the ways that I've let it impact me in my life really negatively. And I don't think I let myself be really honest about that until the last year. Like being really honest about how much time I was spending there, even when I wasn't sharing or creating anything, how much time I spent thinking about like whether or not people would like me or accept me or be okay with what I shared or whether or not I would be helpful. Like how much time that app has taken from my creativity, from my ability to deepen in my work, from my, like, sense of freedom to be myself without worrying about what this huge audience of people think. And so I, I think another layer of all of this is like being willing to be very honest and confront myself about the role that it's played in my life and about, like, the depth of impact that it's actually had.

Lisa OliveraAnd I think I sort of bypassed that for a long time because it also has brought so much goodness. It's brought, you know, it's brought the capacity to, to write books. Like that has been a dream of mine since I was a child, since I like made my first book in kindergarten. Like that has been something I've always wanted to do. And I was able and am able to do it because of this audience that I've, that I've built and, and created.

Lisa OliveraBut I don't think I let myself like really acknowledge the harm that it has caused my mental, emotional, spiritual health until the last year or so. And I think it has required like a lot of facing and a lot of courage to look honestly, and also a lot of permission to grieve, like how much I've given to something that doesn't give back because it's not a person, it's not a real place. It's not like a real community. It's not something that can be reciprocal in the ways that I think our brains can like look to it for. And so I think there's also been like almost this grieving process of how much I've lost to feeling like I needed that app in ways that I've felt like I've needed it before.

Lisa OliveraAnd that has been, yeah, like actually quite profound to let myself feel and to let myself be honest about and to let myself like need to move through, because I think there can be so much shame and embarrassment and self judgment around some of our reasons for needing an app or reasons for wanting to be on there or reasons for sharing or whatever it may be. And just like having the internal permission to fully feel some of that has been really hard. And also like has started this process of being able to unwind some of my, my internal sense of self from the perception of who I am from this audience that I've cultivated.

Speaker 2I

Amelia Hrubyfeel like I needed to hear some of those things, even though I haven't been on social media for years. Like, you know, when I was on social media, a big part of the, like, body of work I was creating was around selfies for radical self love. And I did all this work around taking selfies and learning to love my fat body. And I also was studying philosophy and feminist philosophy. So I was doing teaching around, like, the male gaze and the female gaze and the oppositional gaze that bell hooks theorizes.

Amelia HrubyAnd what I'm hearing as I'm listening to you, what I'm hearing you say is, like, the Instagram gaze is its own gaze that has really come to crystallize over the past decade for so many of us. And it has become its own very real filter that we can start to view our entire lives and filter our sense of self through. And I think that it's really challenging to take that filter off your life once it has gotten all the way in your head as you've kind of described. And even if you do that, even if you say, get off Instagram like I did, like, suddenly you look at the world and you're like, this all looks so weird. Why does it look this way?

Amelia HrubyOr like, I'm still seeing it through this filter even though I'm not on the app. Like, it really it's really challenging to to understand or to disentangle all of that. And I just feel like a lot of what I do is help people do a kind of basic emotional accounting of, like, what good has come from social media for you and what harm has come. And at some point, those scales shift and the decision becomes easier and clearer. And for some people, the goods and the harms are, like, really low stakes and it kind of is not that much of a question or that big of a question for them.

Amelia HrubyAnd for other people, it's like, well, like, I think, you know, Cody Cook Pierrot has a zine that's like social media brought me my best friend's book deal, career, house, all of that, and it made me want to die in in their terms. Like, we have to do that emotional accounting, and some of that is also the material accounting of the book deal, the career changes, the things that do come with that. And I just appreciate you being so honest and open and real with us and, like, where you're at with that accounting right now.

Lisa OliveraYeah. And I think that, like, one of the gifts of being willing to look honestly at the reasons I'm still there, the reasons I'm afraid to leave, the reasons I think I shouldn't leave or the reasons I think I should, like, even though I haven't gotten to a place of clarity or certainty, I feel like I have from doing that self examination and reflection, gotten to a place of at least being willing and able to like choose. And it feels like now I'm choosing to still be there and I can choose to leave if and when I think that that's the right choice for me. Whereas before I did any of this honest looking at my own behaviors and that what I was getting and not getting from that space, it didn't really feel like there was a choice. Like it, it almost felt like, well, I wish there was a choice.

Lisa OliveraLike I wish I could choose differently, but it didn't feel like there was actually a choice, even though there is, and there always was. But I feel like in exploring it and even thinking about like my path and my trajectory and the ways my work has changed and the ways that my life has changed, it feels like I have more access to actually choosing and to owning my choices and to taking responsibility for whether I choose to stay or go. And, and for just being willing to stay in like an honest conversation with myself around what that means. Like that has felt more important to me than, than like being able to make any final decisions in this season. And I imagine that a time will come where like more decisions are made about it and I feel more clarity.

Lisa OliveraBut I think even being in this place of like, oh yeah, I get to choose if I want to leave there. Like I can. And if I do want to leave, like I can figure out other ways to make things work. Like it feels like a gift to be able to yeah. Feel the relief of being honest about what role social media plays in my life and in my work.

Lisa OliveraSo that when I'm choosing and making the decisions that I make, it's coming from a place of just rootedness in reality and rootedness in what's available and not a place of scarcity or fear that I think was leading a lot of my reasons for like being there all the time before.

Amelia HrubyIt sounds like you've really like reclaimed your agency and taken some of the power back. Whereas like it used to be that the, the Instagram had all the power or, you know, the like 400 ks on your profile had all the power, but now you've reclaimed it for yourself. And, like, you are able I love this. Like, you're in the space of choice again, which is where we have to be if we're going to be free. And so I think that is, like, the medicine that anyone listening to this show who's still on social media, like, that's the medicine we need.

Amelia HrubyLike, if you're going to stay, I want it to be your choice. I don't want it to feel like something you are compelled or have to do. Like, it should be something you're choosing to do. And I'm not here to judge that choice as long as it is a choice that that you're making.

Lisa OliveraYeah. And I really, really feel that. And when I am there, I'm asking myself, like, how can I share and be here in ways that are, like, liberatory and nourishing and and supportive? And, like, how can I share causes that matter to me? How can I share places to donate and mutual aid funds and, like, things that are that can actually cultivate positive change in ways that I feel like the people in charge of social media are not really wanting?

Lisa OliveraThat's, like, kind of where my focus and attention is going now there. But I do think I will be listening to all of your future episodes as I continue, like being in this exploration of what it means to be there and what it potentially means to not be there anymore if and when that happens.

Amelia HrubyWell, I'm so happy to be in this conversation and in ongoing conversations with you. I really appreciate just checking in with you in this moment of what your relationship with social media is like and how it's feeling for you. And is there anything else that you wanna say about your work or social media today?

Lisa OliveraI think I'll just also say that I feel really grateful that I get to share my writing and that I get to share things that are important to me and things that matter to me and things that I feel the world needs more of, especially now. Like, I feel quite rooted in knowing that like what I do and what I share actually does have an impact and it actually does reach people and that's important. And while it's a struggle to be in the space of like having an audience and being perceived and all of that, it, it, it is also like a huge gift and has brought me so much. And it feels really nourishing. Actually, like every time I get to send out a newsletter, it feels like I get to send just like more of what I want to see into the world.

Lisa OliveraAnd so I do also just wanna yeah, honor that even though it can be a struggle to, like, be in these explorations, that it also means that myself and other people in this exploration and struggle are doing things that matter. And that feels important to like, stay really rooted too.

Amelia HrubyAbsolutely. Grief and gratitude always come together. Yeah. Thank you, Lisa, so much for joining me in this conversation. Thank you listeners for spending this time with us.

Amelia HrubyPlease do head to the show notes and subscribe to Lisa's Substack, buy Lisa's book. And I think we'll just leave you with that grief and that gratitude today. Until next time, we will see you Off the Grid.

Speaker 2Kinda hate social media. Feeds on my brain like a bacteria. If you're in my Wikipedia,

Speaker 3it'll say, I kinda hate social media.

Speaker 2Host a picture of myself. Sacrifices my mental health. Use your product time to tell. I would rather go to help. Do you like this?

Speaker 2This? Do you like this? Leave a comment? Can you share this?

Lisa OliveraOkay.

Amelia HrubyThat was an abridged version of Social Media by Surfer Boy and Rectangle. To hear the entire song, find Surfer Boy on Spotify or head to the link in the show notes. Thanks so much to them for sharing the song with us, as well as to Melissa Caitlin Carter, who sings our theme song that you hear at the start of every show. I'm your host, Amelia Frooby, and if you enjoyed this episode, I hope you will download the free Leading Social Media Toolkit at offthegrid. Funtoolkit.

Amelia HrubyUntil next time, I will see you Off the Grid. Hi again, Amelia here. Remember me? You just heard my voice and now I'm back. But this time, it's with a very special gift as thanks to you for staying tuned in and being one of our very loyal listeners and fans.