🍓 Rewilding Your Business & How to Rest in Busy Times — with Lindsay Mack of Tarot for the Wild Soul

Amelia HrubyHey there, Off the Grid listeners. Amelia here popping in before this episode with a special announcement. Come to class, which is my three day workshop intensive, where I will teach you how to teach and sell online with confidence and care, has been rescheduled for June fourth, fifth, and sixth. You probably heard me talking about it here on the podcast in May, and I had to push the dates because my beloved dog, Zoe, sadly passed away the week that come to class was going to happen, and I just couldn't teach in those immediate moments of grief. So I rescheduled come to class for the beginning of June, and I added even more support if you'd like to join us.

Amelia HrubySo this is just a very quick message to invite you to head to the show notes and check out come to class. You have until the end of May to sign up. It's going to be a great time. And since it had to be rescheduled, you can still join. Again, head to the link in the show notes to sign up.

Amelia HrubyNow, let's get into this episode.

Speaker 1Let's go off the grid. Okay. Let's go off the grid. Okay. I know that you really wanna put your phone away.

Speaker 1Yeah. Let's go off the grid.

Amelia HrubyHello, and welcome to Off the Grid, a podcast about starting, growing, and running a creative online business without relying on social media. I'm your host, Amelia Frooby, and today, I am here to bring you a very, very, very special episode. When I started off the grid, I had a tiny list, a secret list of dream guests, people whose podcasts I listened to and loved and dreamt that one day I might have them on my podcast and be able to talk to them directly, ask them any question I wanted, and do it in a way where we got to feel comfortable and expansive together, not just, like, stressed and urgent or panicked and nervous or, like, either of us was doing some type of obligatory promotion or something like that. I dreamt of hosting people like today's guest, and I am so thrilled to tell you that this week on Off the Grid, I am joined by Lindsay Mack of Tarot for the Wild Soul. If you are not familiar with Lindsay, they are a celebrated and renowned tarot reader, teacher, and author who has taught and supported tens of thousands of students in the Soul Tarot School and reached millions of listeners on their podcast, Tarot for the Wild Soul.

Amelia HrubyLindsay's show is one of the ones that I listened to when I was learning about tarot, and I returned to it time and time again for their wisdom and guidance. And while Lindsay is all over the Internet talking about tarot, and we love it, they much less often get to talk about their business and really dig into not just the who, what, where, when, why of the cards, but the how of their business and how their approach to tarot has come to support them and their family over the past decade. So in this conversation, Lindsay and I are going deep behind the scenes of tarot for the wild soul and soul tarot, and Lindsay shares how they built their creative business, the inflection points that led to their very successful business growth, and then also decline that you'll hear about over the past few years. They also talk about the realities of being a breadwinner without a safety net in this, you know, proverbial wave's hands economy, and then we get into why they're releasing a tarot deck and book now. Why didn't it come sooner?

Amelia HrubyWhat makes this the moment? We dig into all of that, and Lindsay closes us with a really beautiful meditation on the tarot archetypes that are carrying them through this very busy season of their book launch. And that piece of the conversation gave me a lot of solace and guidance for how to handle busy seasons in my own life and how to rest amidst that overwhelm. So this episode is so special to me, and I'm so grateful that you pressed play on it. Before you get to hear it, I do want to encourage you to get a copy of tarot for the wild soul, Lindsay's new book, and the soul tarot deck, which is a gorgeous tarot deck illustrated by Chelsea Granger that also comes with a guidebook talking about each card.

Amelia HrubySo you'll hear a bit in this conversation about the difference between tarot for the wild soul book and the soul tarot deck with its guidebook. But in my opinion, you're gonna want both. So go ahead and head to the show notes for the link to order both of them while we dive in to today's episode, my conversation with Lindsay Mack.

Amelia HrubyHi, Lindsay. Welcome to Off the Grid.

Lindsay MackIt's so lovely to be here. Legitimately a dream come true.

Amelia HrubyI am so excited to speak with you today about your new book, your new deck, and about your business. So I know that you have been reading tarot for thirty years now and that you have been a professional tarot reader, teacher, designer. I feel like you weave so much into your practice, but that you've been doing that work for over a decade. And I'm really excited to chart these sort of parallel courses of you going to the cards, living your life with them, and eventually building this deck with the wonderful artist Chelsea Granger, as you also built a business and made tarot your livelihood, which I know there are plenty of off the grid listeners who would love to be in that position and I'm sure have delighted in seeing you succeed in this way. So

Lindsay MackI thought we would start with the book

Amelia Hrubyand then we'll move into talking about your business. And then at the very end, we'll talk a little bit about actual tarot cards and archetypes. And I was wondering if I could begin with a kind of open ended question, if you'll allow it, which is, could you tell me the story of your book and the deck and how this came to be and why now?

Lindsay MackIt's funny that you ask it because it's a question I've asked quite a bit over the last several years. So I spent a great deal of of the last ten to eleven years kind of always imagining that writing a book would be something that I would do, but it never worked out. I would kind of like, I'd hear from an editor who was interested, but couldn't find an agent and then found an agent and it never quite gelled. Like, it just never happened. And a couple of times I thought, well, goddamn it.

Lindsay MackI'll just do it. And I couldn't do it. I would be physically stopped sometimes. I'd try to do it and I burst into a flare, into a pain flare or, like, it was a little bigger than me in ways that was a huge point of conflict for many years. And then I was actually about to just completely abandon this career a couple years ago after I had my child in 2020.

Lindsay MackI had my child, had a postpartum from hell, multiple, unfortunately, subsequent surgeries, and the economy tanked, and my business became incredibly slow. It was very, very frightening. I'm our primary provider. So it was just an enormous amount of pressure within, like, the first year of having my child. And I just thought, like, you know, not that this is an answer, but I I was just like, I don't know if my heart is in this anymore.

Lindsay MackAnd I kind of feel like maybe people are done with my work. I think I I took the economic factor, like, personally. It took a little while, I think, for a lot of, like, more intimate creators to start talking about how it was most of us. So I thought it was just me for a really long time. And this is a long way of saying that I was researching grad schools, and then somebody asked me if they'd ever thought I'd write a book.

Lindsay MackAnd I said, I I would like to, but I won't do it without an agent. She introduced me to my agent, Meg Thompson, who helped me draft a proposal, and somebody at Hachette wanted it and gave me a lovely advance for that book, which was pretty unheard of and wanted to do a deck too. And I wanted to do it with Chelsea and they said yes. And Chelsea said yes. And like, it was dropped into my lap.

Lindsay MackI think. I believe I worked

Speaker 1for

Lindsay Mackit, but there's an element of fortune and good luck in it that I could never have worked for. So it was just like an unbelievably lucky thing. And I think I certainly wasn't planning to have it this way, but I do feel like it was some kind of miraculous act to keep me in the work because I was beyond ready to let it go. So it was really extraordinary, not just like, oh, you're writing this book. Like, hold in there with this business.

Lindsay MackLike, everything got a little smoother. Everything evened out a little bit, but so many different things blossomed just from my having written the book. So I'm not totally sure why now, but there are elements of the timing that feel very important and fortuitous. And while it was a little later than I would have loved for it to be, I personally don't think I could have ever written this book prior to becoming a parent. I do not think I could have written this book without having gone through the experience of birth and also of going through an emergency health crisis, which happened to me after I gave birth, which led me to also become a death doula and pursuing potentially becoming a chaplain very soon as well.

Lindsay MackSo it it's like there were a lot of things that couldn't have happened. I didn't know that. So that's a long winded way of saying it wasn't really completely in my control. I would have really loved for it to have come sooner, but that's okay. You know?

Amelia HrubyThank you so much for weaving all of that in and sharing the journey to the book, because it really does feel like a journey. And I think that so many of us have these like tender dreams that we hold with our work. Right? You know, a book is one for so many people, publishing a book or a tarot deck or, you know, illustrating a calendar or anything it may be, whatever it is. Like, so many of us have these dreams of creating sort of culminatory objects in our work.

Amelia HrubyAnd I really appreciate your story of this journey of, like, it's something you wanted, and you wanted it much sooner than it actually happened, And it just kept getting blocked both by external forces and by like your literal body saying, no, it's not this, it's not it. It's not what these people it's not in this way. Not now. And it was only when you went through I mean, it sounds to me like just multiple concurrent sort of dark night of the soul moments that on the other side of that, you had everything you needed to write the book and create the deck. And I mean, on the one hand, that's really beautiful.

Amelia HrubyAnd on the other hand, I'm like, sorry, you had to go through hell to have your tarot deck.

Lindsay MackThank you. Actually, I

Amelia Hrubyappreciate that. I, I wanna ask you a little bit then about why you decided to make the book this way, or like maybe to, just to clarify for listeners. So there is a book called Tarot for the Wild Soul, a trauma informed approach for growth, healing, and grounding in the present moment.

Lindsay MackMhmm.

Amelia HrubyThen there is a deck called soul tarot that includes a guidebook inside with descriptions of the cards. And I probably wasn't a very close reader before I was looking into this, but I thought Tarot for the Wild Soul was essentially gonna be a book that was a guidebook. And when I started to go through it, I was like, oh, no. This is something else. So could you tell me and the listeners, like, what is the something else of this book that you've written, and why isn't it just a guidebook?

Lindsay MackWell, I think that it might have been had there not been the good fortune of also doing a tarot deck, which they were delighted to do. And I I felt so lucky that they wanted to do running press. As some people may know and probably you'll mention in the intro, I teach a kind of a tarot, a style of tarot called soul tarot. And there's a lot that I could say about it, but the biggest pieces and kind of anchor points to understand about it is that it aims to be a kind of a supportive framework for approaching the cards that is rooted in the willingness to consider each card is bringing helpful medicine, even if you don't like it. Like, you're you're totally allowed not to like it.

Lindsay MackBut if there's a willingness, and this will connect by the way, but if there's a willingness to say, like, there might be something that this card is offering me here that could be useful to me. It changes our relationship with the deck and the way that we're able to receive support from it. In my experience, it really does. Because so much of the way tarot is kind of discoursed and the way that our kind of over culture, it's like this idea that tarot is being done to me or whatever it is. That's another big framework is like the tarot is happening for you, not to you.

Lindsay MackI believe in soul tarot. It's a big pillar. Like, we're we're encouraged, not even, like, permissioned, but encouraged to go to the cards messy. There's the way that you're really gonna understand the cards as if you go to them with your raw stuff versus getting polished to go to them for whatever. Right?

Lindsay MackSo these are all just like little tiny bits. Another huge part of the pillars that we we aim to kind of orient our readings in the present moment rather than the future. But the reason that I felt really called to write a book and the reason that I think, like, everyone wanted me to write the book that I did is because, once again, sort of the over cultural, to coin a phrase by doctor Clarissa Pinkola Estes, like, the over cultural paradigm of tarot is so built on something so profoundly different that the book, it's a humble attempt, but the invitation of the book is to rebuild the foundation and to help people to consider the cards in a not wildly different way. There are lots of treatments of the cards that are, like, pretty standard. They're they're not too variant.

Lindsay MackBut there's a there's a commitment to trying to unpack some of the stuff that has made tarot a little bit more out of reach. And so the work of the book is to undo and rewild, Undo some of the harmful, tricky, difficult, uninclusive aspects of tarot, probably imperfectly on my part, and invite folks to rewild and reclaim the deck in their own image. And there's a lot of use of kind of seasons and spirals and nature to help with that. But that's the task of the book, and it can be used kind of as a guide book, but not really. Whereas the deck, I just wanted it to be something where you didn't need the book if you didn't want it.

Amelia HrubyI really appreciate this emphasis on rewilding the tarot, something I've found in my own relationship to the cards, but also when I have worked with some other teachers or just I encounter other people who read them, is that people can often bring sort of their relationship to dogmatic religion into a dogmatic relationship with any spiritual tradition, and there can be a sense of like, this is the right way or the wrong way or the right meaning or the wrong meaning. And I have been studying tarot for long enough myself, which is about a decade now, to have started to see some of the common narratives that you're interrupting here. Like, I love some of the pillars of soul tarot that I'll just read from chapter two of your book. You've already referenced them, but I'd love to just name them explicitly where you say there are no bad or good cards in the tarot, the present moment is all there is, we're not focused on future divination, we're focused on how we are right now, which leads to that beautiful pillar that we're allowed to be messy when we go to our tarot decks instead of having the way I think of it is, like, I don't have to be my highest self to go to the tarot decks.

Amelia HrubyI can go there and maybe try to commune with my higher self, but, like, I don't have to be in the best possible place to arrive at the cards. And I also love your insistence that each card is an invitation and that tarot is spiralic. So it's really this, like, path that we walk over and over again. And I think it's a really beautiful way of centering in your very specific approach to tarot that you call soul tarot. I think what I loved about reading through your book is it felt less like I was doing a sort of, like, card by card study of the tarot, which I have done more than once.

Amelia HrubyAnd I documented on a whole podcast where I made a podcast card by card as well. Like, instead of that, what you get is invitations into moments in your life and cards that you might turn to and that might show up there. So, you know, I love chapter 11, when you're in hell. I like this emphasis on, like, you can go to the tarot from a particular stage in your own personal journey and find certain cards, but also that you can sort of, really, I felt like this book gave me permission to rewild the tarot and kind of create my own moments. Like, what would my be my cards be for the moments when I'm in hell?

Amelia HrubyWhat would my cards be for the moments when, you know, I'm living on spiral time or I'm deep in grief? Or, you know, what are the themes I would pull out and what are the cards I would turn to? It just felt like a really, as you've said, like, radical rewilding of how do we mix and remix these archetypes instead of always studying them as zero, one, two, three, four, instead of always seeing it as a sort of linear journey.

Lindsay MackThank you for reflecting that to me, and I am honored to know that, especially as a reader yourself, like, it made that kind of an impact that brings me so much joy. And, yeah, I think, like, I'm a very, very passionate teacher of the tarot, and I'm actually, like, later today wrapping up my twelve week training. And every time I teach a big container like that, it's a massive gift because it reminds me that even though this is, like, a North star, like Soltero is a North star that helps and guides me, it really is totally flexible. And also I think has been born out of reading books since I was 12 years old and really just being like, I can't find anything in this that I can and I I think one kind of delicious gift of starting at 12 is that everything that was written, especially at that time, because I'm 42, was really for people who were a lot older than me, which immediately tells you that it really can't stand for everybody if a 12 year old can't resonate with it. Right?

Lindsay MackAnd I think you're right about this idea of like, I think two important thing to acknowledge that is acknowledged in the book and in the acknowledgements that I think reading for the future is an exquisite I mean, it's a huge part of the closed practices of Roma and Romani readers. It's a massive part of some people's, like, inherited, again, sort of closed practices. It's a huge part for a lot of cultures for a lot of particular readers. Some inherited, some not. Some people read more like that, some don't.

Lindsay MackAnd I am a celebrator of all kinds of reading. Like, I I mean, I love working with my students who are like, I absolutely like my guides use the court cards to talk about my clients' family members or lover or other people. I'm like, hell, yes. And for those of us who do not have that, this is one option for, I think, a pretty sturdy fallback if you're just like, yeah, I don't feel particularly like I am an intuitive very clearly, but I don't the cards are not doing the intuiting for me. My guides are, and they use the tarot how and when I see fit.

Lindsay MackSo I think it I think it leaves a lot of space for the joy and the beauty in all kinds of practices. It's just one other way of having, again, like bones of the house.

Amelia HrubyI really love that flexibility and inclusivity and, like, recognition of there certainly are closed card reading practices. And and also tarot in and of itself, at least based off of the Rider Waite Smith deck, it is not the cards themselves are not a closed practice. We can't approach them. We can Yeah. Enjoy and experience them.

Amelia HrubyAnd when I say we, I mean at anyone who's listening to this or who feels drawn to them. You've already mentioned your work and your business a few times, so I wanna kind of officially wrap it in here.

Amelia HrubyI would love to hear a

Amelia Hrubybit about how you went professional with tarot, I suppose. Like, I know a common path is to go from reading for oneself to offering paid readings and then maybe doing some workshops and things. Is that how your journey went? Can you talk a little bit about how you sort of made the leap from tarot being a personal practice to being your whole business?

Lindsay MackYes. I would love to. So I I came up around I made the leap into professional practice in 2014. And I mentioned that because it was a whole different world in 2014. You know, there was a lot of room to do that, You know?

Lindsay MackA lot of room to come up. A lot of room, like it wasn't incredibly common to have people pursuing paths as, like, full time tarot readers. I would say we were, like, coming into that time. I'd been there a little bit, but that wasn't really on my radar. So I went through a pretty intense, just like mental health situation.

Lindsay MackLet's just put it that way. Just like a very, very intense PTSD, like, all came all came up and forward right around the time when I got married, and that was in June 2014. And I was really lucky to, after I got married, just heal. Like, I was with the right people. I had the right resources, and I my nervous system was starting to come back together.

Lindsay MackAnd I happened into a store in Brooklyn that was, like, I'd gone into a couple of times. And I went in there to talk about doing a pop up because I was in a I was involved in like a wellness collective at the time. And they were lovely. And they mentioned that their tarot reader had dropped out and they needed somebody to come in and read for, like, a summer event that they were having. And I said, I don't know what made me say it.

Lindsay MackI'm a tarot reader, and I would love to do that for you. And I remember leaving the store and calling my partner and being like, I don't know why the fuck I just said this because I also, at that time, like, I'd been reading forever, but I was reading for myself and friends. So I wasn't, like, hard memorized. I was just sort of, like, going with whatever. But then that night, I was like, oh, I gotta pull on these BFA in theater arts after skills because I'm a fast memorizer and kind of a little bit of a photographic memory, especially for, like, things that I hear.

Lindsay MackAnd I wound up getting a little memorized on every single card and went back in the next day, and I thought, well, I mean, it's $5. I took it very seriously, but I was like, you know, I I don't know. There was a lot of it that I didn't totally understand why, but it felt really right to do. And I sat down and I did many readings and it was like every gift and skill and quality of my personality and relationship with this tool that I had been in intimate relationship with forever was coming together in this moment with these strangers in a in a dedicated way. And I knew in that moment, I was like, I have a I think I have a real gift with this.

Lindsay MackLike, different from like, there's It was also my first experience really of understanding that I I was getting something for people that I had no way of knowing how I was knowing it. And I walked out that night, like, on a cloud. And I remember, again, calling my partner and being like, I think I wanna try to do this. And so I was working at a chat as a childcare provider at the time, and I just from September 2020 or of 2014 to August 2015, like, hustled. I don't really like that word too much, but was hustled not from a burnout place, but but a place of, like, absolute passion.

Lindsay MackLike, I was like, I will read at any time at any hour. I will meet people at cafes. I will, like so it was a combination of doing as much reading as I could at the shop, teaching a little bit, like, for pennies on the dollar, basically, doing readings on Instagram, which actually like reached people during those during those those olden times. And people really connected with what I had to say very quickly. I wouldn't say it was an absolute wave, but it was enough.

Lindsay MackAnd then very shortly after that, the lovely person that I was working with was like, I'm having a baby, and I'm not gonna go back to work. So you have, like, seven months notice for your last day. And for seven months, I was like, okay. I will get as much experience, try to cobble as much together as I can. Maybe I could try to give it a shot.

Lindsay MackLike, maybe? I don't know. And there was really very little proof that it was going to work, frankly. And then my job ended, and I kicked it off full time with this work, and, like, it happened. Like, it was enough.

Lindsay MackMy partner at that time had a job and had a job for many years. So that was trust and believe the only way it was able to work for the first few years. But it was a lot of and I don't necessarily know that this is good advice for anyone, but it was a lot of, like, I had to just cut my teeth. I had to do a lot for a lot less money than I wanted to do. I had to do a lot of stuff and learn, like, wow.

Lindsay MackI never wanna do that again ever. And, like, I definitely didn't go into it with a perfect plan. I did not go into it thinking like, oh, this is, like, how it's all gonna work out. It took a really long time before I was able to make enough to actually, like, you know, be in the green and then got incredibly successful and didn't know what to do with that either. And that was very scary and overwhelming to have a lot of money over a couple of years And to, like, do my best with, like, my paying my people, it was wild overpayment, you know, on my part.

Lindsay MackAnd I was like, is it enough? Oh my god. And, like, being misunderstood and, like, not not that I'm complaining about that, but very uncomfortable with, like, all of that happening so quickly. And also it was the greatest blessing. And then getting comfortable with being like, wow.

Lindsay MackTimes are way leaner than they've been for the last three, four years. Okay. Like, what are my values? What do I wanna change? Like, what's gonna allow this to continue to make sense?

Lindsay MackSo it was, again, like, pretty I I don't know that I, again, like, could have planned it like that. It just happened that the ledge was there. I was absolutely ready to get a job at any time. I've always worked service jobs, nanny, cleaning person. So I was prepared to do that, but it wound up not happening.

Amelia HrubyI'm really hearing the way that, like, for you, your path sort of appears as you walk it.

Lindsay MackYes.

Amelia HrubyAnd it's not that you're like, that's where I'm gonna go and I'm gonna track my way there.

Lindsay MackI want it to be that way, Amelia. Do you have anybody you can talk to to have my life become that way? Because I would love it.

Amelia HrubyYes. Let me petition the gods and goddesses. Sweet. Let's see. It's Get me

Lindsay Mackin there for a meeting.

Amelia HrubyIt's also hilarious to me personally because I recently recorded with Andy j Pizza of Creative Pep Talk Podcast all about creative strategy. And Andy was very much like, everything I do is mapped out. Like, I know where I wanna go. I do everything in between here and there, and it's all strategic. And they, like, sort of laid it all out.

Amelia HrubyAnd I was like, wow, that's so beautiful. And I cannot relate maybe less.

Lindsay MackI wanna be like that so bad. And I always try to be and then it, like, it's the equivalent of, like, bursting into flames in my hands and then having the flames, like, turn into, like, little clowns dancing around. Like, it just it won't be.

Amelia HrubyYeah. I think, like, we each have different paths through life, obviously. We each have different sort of, like, contracts and karmic deaths and whatever you wanna believe in that we're here to resolve. And also, I think a lot about human design and, like, for me, with my profile, like, I just have to try the thing. Like you said, I personally can't know if something's for me or not until I try to do it, and then I will get some clear evidence whether it was for me or not.

Amelia HrubyBut that leads to a path that looks more nontraditional perhaps or stop start or just, like, requires more risk taking because you have to try it out.

Speaker 1Yeah.

Amelia HrubyAnd I am very strategic at this stage, but people did not see me because I was not a public person in the, like, decade where I was deeply fucking around around and finding out. And I'm really glad that they didn't see that and that there's no longer a lot of evidence for it anywhere. So I wanna ask you a a few more, like, questions about some of the points in that journey. I'm so curious, you know, I know I first encountered your work on Instagram. And my perception, even when I first found it was like, wow.

Amelia HrubyThis is like a big tarot person. Lindsay is like the person in the space. I think you already had your podcast at that point. Yeah. I think you were already in that upswing of success.

Amelia HrubySo I'm curious for you, like, are there specific things when you look back that you're like, oh, these were the inflection points, like starting the podcast or

Lindsay MackOh, yeah.

Amelia HrubyLike, somebody shared me on Instagram and it all kinda that helped it really grow. Could you talk a little bit about what those moments were?

Lindsay MackYes. Absolutely. So one, Maha Rose. So Maha Rose gave me an opportunity to be a reader with them and to teach a little with them, and, wow, was that important for me. And I'm so grateful that Lisa gave me the opportunity to do that.

Lindsay MackI'm thinking too about Ruby Warrington from the numinous. Like, I owe so much to Ruby. Like, she gave me the opportunity to write the tarot scopes, which was such a gift and a really important discipline. Like, generating that every week and every month was was like a sacred discipline. I think especially for me because I'm all over the place that it was super helpful and really important in a devotion and a service to be sure.

Lindsay MackAnd that was a big inflection point too. I think Maha Rose was certainly working with the numinous was for a couple of years. My podcast to be sure. With all due respect, and I wanna really say, like, I'm speaking right now without complete crystal clear Like, I know that there was somebody out there doing it alongside what I'm about to say. So I just wanna offer the utmost respect on whomever's name that I'm about to not speak to.

Lindsay MackBut if you can believe it, it did not feel incredibly strategic to make a podcast. It felt like a tithing. So, like, the one of the reasons I'm, like, alive right now is because of Tara Brach's podcast, which saved my life a 100 times over, really, like, helped me to awake the you know, to the idea that I even wanted to be in a helping space to begin with. And Tara Brach's podcast was always free, and I didn't come from any money. So I don't know.

Lindsay MackI think I just thought, like, well, I it could be really cool to do this. It was in 2017 that was, like, the podcast boom for some, but I think not for most. And as far as I knew, there was Bitty Tarot's podcast and I think one other tarot podcast that was, like, really in front of me. I didn't listen too much to Bitty Tarot, but obviously knew Bridget, in the field and in the world. And I did it, and it was incredibly popular and very successful, I think, because it there wasn't a whole lot of other voices in the space, frankly.

Lindsay MackLike, it was just a very lucky opportunity, but I didn't do it to get more successful. I think I just did it because I wanted to serve people who couldn't afford to work with me, which has always been a cornerstone of what I do. And then my course. So I did my first course a little bit after having launched my podcast. And if you can believe it, the idea to do my first course did not come to me until basically two months before I did it, which is my style.

Lindsay MackBut it was it happened to be at a time when courses were doing just really well, and it continued to be a really important mainstay. So I think there have been definitely, like, these moments. I would say post course, I can't think of too too many other. I would say post course, it's been a long time, pretty much from 2017 to to now that the book is coming out. I had made my table and I was really dressing my table and I was bringing other people to my table, but I didn't get invited to a lot of tables after that, which makes sense.

Lindsay MackBecause once you get to a certain point in your career, that dynamic shifts. You're invited to a little bit less. You're hosting more. And now that's a little different, which is lovely. But, yeah, so I would say those are the bigger inflection points.

Amelia HrubyIt's really helpful to hear. And also it all just tracks for me and the way that it grows. Like first through other people, relationally. I think that the longer that I have this podcast and I talk to people and, you know, critique social media, it just really strikes me over and over again, how people will try to use social media as either a shortcut to relationships or to replace them. It's like, well, I don't need those strategic partners.

Amelia HrubyAnd not even like, I call them, quote, unquote, strategic partners. They're just people you met, who, like, you connect with, who wanna support each other's work.

Lindsay MackYeah.

Amelia HrubyAnd I think that for some people, they have been able to build businesses without that through an algorithm or through, you know, paid ad traffic or something. But to me, that is always really precarious because any of that can go away at any time. But the relationships, if you are attending them and staying in integrity, like, they will remain for decades and they can really sort of help birth a business, which I think is really beautiful. I can think of people who definitely have helped, like, like, doula this podcast into existence, not because that's what they thought they were doing, but just because they shared it enough. I was like, this would not be as successful if, you know, Cody Cook Perrett had not been shouting it out a lot.

Amelia HrubyIf the Holisticism crew hadn't shared it, it would not have gotten the legs it needed for me to actually be able to, like, take it forward. So I love that it started there for you. And then also that as you kept going, you built in the pillars that mattered. You built in the podcast. You built in the teaching.

Amelia HrubyI definitely would agree with you.

Amelia HrubyIt's I can't think of a

Amelia Hrubylot of, like, long standing tarot podcasts.

Amelia HrubyI think the one I

Amelia Hrubyused to listen to was Tarot Bytes with Teresa Reed.

Lindsay MackOh, I need to throw respect on. That was the person that I was like, I'm missing them. Teresa's so amazing and important. Yes. Terabytes was absolutely around and was great and beloved.

Lindsay MackStill is, I think.

Amelia HrubyI think so. Yeah. It's such a great show. And and also it's and it's not that there can only be one. Right?

Lindsay MackNo. Not at all.

Amelia HrubyAnd we need many, but I would I would agree the space did not feel full or something. And also this is like podcasting before AI. This is such a different era. I mean, even when I created my own tarot podcast, the reason I made it is because I couldn't find what I wanted, which was a tarot podcast that had episodes that were under five minutes on every card.

Lindsay MackOh.

Amelia HrubyAnd so I was like, oh, I just need to do this. Mhmm. And, you know, and it was like a personal practice for me. There was no money involved. It was not professional.

Amelia HrubyIt was my way to try to actually study through public sharing, which has been something I've done throughout my career. But all of that is to say that I love that your podcast started from a place of, I want to offer accessible understandings of these cards. And because podcasts saved my life, thank you, Tara Brock, I'm gonna do it in the form of a podcast to offer that to other people. It comes out of the sense of radical generosity. And then from there builds you know, I often find, like, when people start podcasting and you actually have to say all the things out loud, that can give you the confidence to begin teaching or to, like, realize, like, oh, I do have things to say.

Amelia HrubyI can put this together. Maybe this is a class now. So I'd love to hear more about, like, how did that first class become Soul Tarot School, which is now much bigger than any, like, one class or workshop?

Lindsay MackIt's come together bit by bit, strand by strand. It's woven itself into a bit of a tapestry, which sounds cheesy, but it is true. I think that every single year, I wouldn't recommend this at all, but every single year that I did tarot for the wild soul, the course, it changed. So I would do it all one year and then scrap it all, and then do it all one year and then scrap it. And I think there was only one year where I did the same course twice because I felt like I was constantly relearning things and wanted to speak to them.

Lindsay MackI do a lot less redoing now, which is interesting, but I just don't have the energy, frankly, and the desire to do that. And I have a child. It just doesn't work. But I think that every time I would teach, it would force me to really think, like, is there, as far as I can understand it to be a kind of a code to this pillars, tenets? Like, is there something here that binds all this together?

Lindsay MackAnd every single time like, this book has been built out of the ten years of experience that I've spent doing these courses, doing them, then having students come back to me and be like, but what about my experience? Because this does not align for me at all. And then being like, You're right. Like, it doesn't make any sense. Like, let me rethink that.

Lindsay MackWhatever. And my own experience of being like, well, that really fell apart there, whatever it is. I mean, even I'll share that when I stopped doing readings in 2019, I didn't have to anymore and I was pretty burned out on them. And so I stopped doing them. And then after about a year, really wanted to do them again, but just didn't quite know how to get back into them.

Lindsay MackAnd then in 2022, when things were just, like, much, much more lean in terms of courses, I went back to readings, which was some part, like, yeah, I've been called to this. Another part, like, we got, you know, paid bills, like, gotta take care of things. And it was the greatest gift, not only to reconnect with people like that in that intimate way, but also it got me back. Like, I don't know if I could have written this book without being in practice again as a reader. So Soul Tarot has been formed and continues to be formed through a weaving of teaching regularly, being in conversation with my students, being in my own personal practice, being in relationship with nature and the world around me, navigating my own experiences through chronic illness, PTSD, chronic pain.

Lindsay MackIt's formed out of some kind of weird personal web of understanding that seems to resonate with some people, but it definitely did not get created in one big bolt. It's not really how things get created for me, but it's been learned and honed over time.

Amelia HrubyI think that that is so just feels very, like, down to earth to me and very realistic, to be honest. Like, most businesses that I know of, like unless someone has inherited generational wealth or wins the lottery quite literally, or they're doing something that I would find completely unethical and, and just wouldn't do, they don't have a business overnight. They don't have success overnight. Nothing thrives immediately. Right?

Amelia HrubyAnd so that is true in the practices we cultivate and the businesses we build. And so I appreciated when you spoke earlier about, like, spending the first few years of this hustling and not to glorify the hustle. We're not saying everyone should or has to do that. And also, every time I've seen someone birth a business that truly financially supported them, there was always a period of, like, friction and of labor, quite literally. And, you know, I used to work with Jennifer Armbrust's sister, and she has written a whole business birthing handbook that is about this metaphor of, like, using birth as a metaphor to how businesses come into the world, just like how people come into the world.

Amelia HrubyAnd

Speaker 1Mhmm.

Amelia HrubyOf course, they're different. But I think that metaphorically, there are a lot of analogies here and labor is one of the requirements of that. And that is not to glorify extraction or exploitation or the hustle, but it is to say that, like, the things that will sustain us require us to labor with them at some stage. And also, the whole business journey is not the moments of labor. Right?

Amelia HrubyThe same way that you're not in labor the entire time you're raising your child. And so once you get through that stage, that's when it's really important to interrogate the hustle and be like, do I have to keep pushing? Do I have to keep forcing this? And especially in your business journey, what I'm really hearing is like things change and they grew and there was a lot of success, and that allowed you to build and do things in a certain way. And then I think what I'm piecing together from the things you've said is essentially, like, you had an online school and course business.

Amelia HrubyIt was doing very well until online courses stopped being as popular kind of after the pandemic. We saw that sort of start to decline in, like, 2023, 2024. I think 2025 was a really the year that folks who had built these big course businesses were like, okay, the online course model is not working anymore. And I loved that you admitted, or I appreciate that you admitted that like at first you took it really personally. You're like, oh, it's me.

Amelia HrubyEveryone's done with me. My business is not working because of me actually. And then you realize because people shared that,

Amelia Hrubyoh, no, the market

Amelia Hrubyis shifting. Like,

Speaker 1sort

Amelia Hrubyof the landscape around you was changing. Like, like there was like a literal climate change in online business. And that means that you do have to change and adapt, but but it doesn't mean there's something like inherently wrong or broken in your work or your business. It's just that. What I tell people is like, it doesn't mean you don't get to do what you love anymore.

Amelia HrubyJust the shape of the offerings, the price points, the wrappings of it all does to some extent have to follow what people wanna buy and how they wanna be served in those times. Right. And so I'm so curious then, like, you mentioned that you started doing readings again when things were shifting, but like, what is the shape of your business right now? And how does the book play into that? Because book advances also make business finances really funny.

Amelia HrubySo, so, so what is, yeah, what's your work like in 2026?

Lindsay MackSo this has been an incredibly strange year. Financially, it's good. I'm slightly up from last year, which is great. Just slightly, but I'll take it from the previous years where I was down, down, down, which is great from previous years. So there's been for the last few years, like, a a particular rhythm to our launch flow, I would say, and to the offerings flow in this year's super different.

Lindsay MackSo this was the first year that I offered. I have a membership. I revamped that. I do that. That's year long for however long you wanna be in it.

Lindsay MackAnd that sort of by accident, honestly, has taken the place of my traditional course models because I think that the reality is that we are in a time where we're sort of like post course culture and to for certain industries, certainly. But the truth is that for me, because I've been doing them for so many years, people loved my courses, but it was an enormous volume of material that while they could keep the material well beyond eight weeks, it's very difficult to learn the tarot in eight weeks. And some people like, everyone's a little different. So the membership serves and exists to be like a place where people can pop in, they can pop out, they can learn way more casually. I get to teach kind of what I want.

Lindsay MackIt's a nice flow, and it's cheaper than a course, which is really nice. So I'm always doing things for that. It was my first year doing the Sol Tarot training, which was lovely, and it was great to get to do that. I did a last round of one of my intuition courses, which I'm rebuilding that in a different way. But, honestly, like, it's been a little tricky because to be transparent with you, like, I'm reaching a time where would it not be for the advance, the last part of my advance I'm going to get?

Lindsay MackI would be selling other things, but I'm right now talking about a book. And so I'm not in any way complaining about that, but it is like a little tricky. And it's like very humbling. It's it's it's I think most of the people I know who've written books have maybe more nest egg than I do, have more runway, or they have a partner who works, which I do not right now, or have they have something, something that allows the lights to stay on. And so it's been quite intense because I'm doing things and planned it very carefully so that I could make money, like, up until basically this baby comes out, and then it's gonna come out.

Lindsay MackAnd within a couple weeks, like, we will be opening the doors to different things because, you know, not like in a like like wild fast paced way, but just the summer flow will start, you know, and it will be a lot lighter this year, but super different than usual. But that's okay. You know, it's alright. It's we're making space for a big birth.

Amelia HrubyYeah. I appreciate once again, just your, like, honesty about this because I think that I mean, I know from the outside because I'm projecting this onto your book launch. I'm like, this is amazing. Nobody gets book tours like this. Nobody gets decks and books at the same time.

Amelia HrubyI love it. Yeah. And it's easy to look at that. And if you've never done a book launch, you're like, wow, this person is having the utmost success. They must be rich now, must just be working.

Amelia HrubyAnd once you talk to people who put out books in this way, you're like, yes. I revel in the riches of the deck and the book Yeah. And that, but the money already happened, or a bunch of it did, to help me write the book. I have to pause my business to promote the book, which means there's now this deficit that has to either be bridged by, like, the rest of the advance, if that's coming, which it doesn't for everyone, or, like, a rush to try to get royalties to come in. But so few books actually earn out advances and make royalties.

Amelia HrubyAnd so the economics of it all is very challenging. And I appreciate when authors are honest about it just to be like, any book release is is a complicated nuanced thing in this way.

Lindsay MackAnd I had to by the way, just to add to that, I had to hire my own PR person, which was a piece of advice that was given to me by Ruby. And I remember her telling me this, like, ten years ago because Ruby has written many, many books and started writing books, like, when I was coming up, basically. And, like, was just, like, wide eyed, and she was like, if you ever have the opportunity to write a book, you must budget money for a PR person. And I I, you know, love the publicity team that came with my publishing house. Like, obviously, they were absolutely lovely, but it's like they're very I don't blame them.

Lindsay MackThey're understaffed. They're wildly oversaturated and overworked. And I got the book tour I wanted because I paid for it, which is also a lot of money. And the book publicist that I hired is much more of a book tour person. They are a media person, which maybe was a mistake, but I do I figured, like, I could throw all the money in the world at media and nobody might come to me.

Lindsay MackRight. But if I am in the arena with like the people who really love this work, who like got me to the point where like this book was even possible, Like, I'd prefer that. I've just never been, like, a major press person. Like, it's I I'm a word-of-mouth person so far in my career. And I have, like, some feelings about that, but mostly it's gratitude.

Lindsay MackLike, mostly it's gratitude. So, yes, I just for full transparency sake, the book tour that I got, I don't think that happens without paying for an extra publicist, which I did and had to do.

Amelia HrubySo just wanna

Lindsay Mackput that out there for anybody who might need to hear it.

Amelia HrubyThank you for that transparency and clarity. I love this image though. It's like, you didn't hire a publicist to try to get you on, like, Good Morning America. Instead, I'm just thinking of that metaphor you used before of, like, your business at a certain point and, like, you have set the table and people are coming to the table. And and now you're just sort of, like, carrying your table around the country and inviting people in different spaces to join you on it, which is really, really beautiful.

Amelia HrubyBut heard that you're getting the book launch of your dreams because you're paying for the pieces that you really wanted to happen.

Lindsay MackThat's correct. And I'm happy to be able to do that. Listen. It's a huge fucking privilege. I'm not complaining about it.

Amelia HrubyWell, we're recording this right as you're about to head off on that book tour. You leave in two days. You We do. Are at the threshold of the book coming into the world, and this episode will release right after the book has come into the world. And so I just wanted to ask, are there any tarot cards that are really carrying you through this threshold?

Amelia HrubyAre there archetypes that you're holding close right now as you enjoy this moment?

Lindsay MackYes. So I've been talking kind of by accident about the nature of big birthing and creation seasons. Something that I think really defines a huge creative season, especially when we're comparing it to birth. And honestly, a book launch is pretty close. It's not the same thing, but it is pretty close.

Lindsay MackAnd I would say that one factor of it is that it is too fast. It's a little too much. Like, you're you the correct thing would be to stop and slow down, but you can't really. And so the two cards that are doing everything for me in this space right now are knight of swords and nine of wands. I'm barely even going to my deck because it doesn't matter because that those two cards are all I have.

Lindsay MackSo nine of wands really helps me. I think of it knowing everybody has completely different viewpoints on these two cards and the tarot in general. For me, nine of wands is always an indication that we're a character who's migrating. We are a person in labor. We are running a marathon.

Lindsay MackWe are in a process that is long. We're not gonna get home for a long time. So we have to figure out ways to rest as we can, where we can in between contractions. And it's a very, very different cadence of refueling and recharging than what we want and what might be normal for us. And for me, those things are really important.

Lindsay MackAnd the way that they've sort of come about is I'm in bed when my child's in bed. My child goes to bed at 06:30. I am in bed at 06:30. And, like, the TV is on and I'm doing my lotions and my phone is off and, like, that's it. And I'm actually weirdly getting up earlier because I need a little bit more time before my day gets started.

Lindsay MackSo it's it's there's a lot of self talk. Like, I have days where I'm like, I just can't do anything today, but I must. So it's just continually remembering this is a different cadence. We're lucky to be here, and it's really hard and, like, flow with that. Knight of swords is also a really important one for me.

Lindsay MackFor me, knight of swords can be fast, but more than anything, it's about like, you're capable of going further than you think you are. You have more capacity than you might believe you do. You can do this, but the trick to it is you cannot think about it. You can't dread it. You can't mentally project.

Lindsay MackYou have to go with what's here. And that is a moment to moment thing for me, because again, I'm chronically ill. I have, like, issues with balance and stability and going away for six days in three cities. I need a pretty high degree of rest. I'm on very early flights.

Lindsay MackAgain, none of this is a complaint, but I am scared. I'm scared. I'm like, knight of swords is it's helping me with all of these things with gigantic weeks, gigantic days, gigantic swaths of time to be like you're not there. You can't be there. You're capable of a lot more than you think you are.

Lindsay MackYou gotta be here. And when you're there, you'll figure it out. And thinking about all the other times where I've figured it out and just being like, what's the worst that can happen? You can't do it? Okay.

Lindsay MackYou can't do it. Like, whatever. Like, just not going down because I don't have the energy to waste on being afraid or worried or in the unknown of it all. So those two cards are really holding me up. And yeah.

Lindsay MackAnd I I feel like the empress is back there too as an invitation for me to just really try to enjoy this. You know? I'm never gonna have another book launch like this. I might not write another book and it won't be like this. This is it's really big.

Lindsay MackIt's amazing. And what a fucking privilege and an honor it is to be in this position. So, like, I'm also trying to, like honestly, it's been a really helpful practice to not complain and just be like, you know, like, you're so lucky to be tired. It's great. Like, you know, you're allowed to have your feelings, but also, like, look what look what you're doing right now.

Lindsay MackIt's incredible. So that's been helpful too.

Amelia HrubyOh, I love all of this. As you were sharing about these cards, I was finding them in the Soul tarot deck and feeling so I don't know if pleased is the right word, but to describe for listeners, like, to see the nine of wands as the resting caribou, to see the wands or the logs in this card, like, as holding up the caribou instead of, you know, like, so strapped on and and bearing down in some traditional imagery. I also love that the knight of swords is like a diving hawk, I think, falcon.

Lindsay MackYou had the peregrine falcon.

Amelia HrubyBeautiful peregrine falcon. And, you know, once the falcon dives, they just have to surrender to that moment. They're in the trajectory. Mhmm. And also the empress with these beautiful pomegranate and flowers and dripping honeycomb.

Amelia HrubyAnd as you said, like, that being the backdrop, like, the riches and abundance being the backdrop of this experience, but then recognizing that what you actually need to make it through all of that day to day are these supports. And, you know, something else that was just coming through for me as you were sharing is, like, it'd be so different to be approaching this time as, like, the 10 of

Lindsay Mackswords. Yeah.

Amelia HrubyRight? Like like, you could, you could be like, wow, I'm gonna be so tired, so overrun. I just have to make it to the end. And, yeah, maybe at the end, you'll feel that way. Who knows?

Amelia HrubyBut I love these tarot cards and archetypes you've selected because they're not that, and they they don't predetermine that that's gonna be how you feel. And I completely understand also what you're describing. My spouse, JJ, refers to it as being, like, pre tired. Like, when you're so stressed about what's to come that you're exhausted.

Lindsay MackIt's perfectly put.

Amelia HrubyAnd we try not to get pre tired for the hard things in our household, but I love the knight of swords and the knight of wands and the empress as ways of making it through all of that. So so thank you for sharing. I also loved that tiny bit you said at the beginning, which was like, in this moment, I'm not going to the deck to pull cards. I just know that these are the cards I had selected. And I think that's also a really, lovely piece of wisdom for folks to think about in moments like this where there just may be a lot going on.

Amelia HrubySometimes we actually don't need the additional input or, you know, on a really hard day, you don't necessarily need to pull and then be like, oh, it's already hard and the three of swords is here. Now what? Like, maybe you do need that. But also maybe maybe you should depict the actual support you think you need and ride that out for the hard day.

Lindsay MackThat's great.

Amelia HrubyAlright, Lindsay. Well, thank you so much for this time. I could talk to you truly for so many hours. I definitely wanted to hear, like, how you and Chelsea made the deck together. I wanted to hear more about your school.

Amelia HrubySo we'll have to do, I think, if you're open to it, a part two on the other side.

Lindsay MackKidding me. Yes. Of course. I would die. We had such a lovely experience making the deck.

Lindsay MackThere's so much to say about it.

Amelia HrubyBeautiful. Well, maybe we can have you both on. That would also be very lovely. Is there anything else that you wanted to say to off the grid listeners for now as we wrap up?

Lindsay MackI just wanna say I'm so grateful to be here with all of you, but I also just really want to say something to you, which is to not only thank you from the bottom of my heart for having me, but for being, I mean, truly an anchor for everyone that owns a small business that I know and have ever known. Like Andrea Reeves says, like, all roads lead back to Amelia Frooby. And it's true. Like, that that is the tie that binds, like, this podcast is so important to me. It's so important to so many.

Lindsay MackLike, your work is lifesaving for so many of us. Like, just thank you so much, and I'm so happy to have been here today, really.

Amelia HrubyI received that, and I'm so grateful. And yeah. You know what? Just like cheers to all the podcasts that save our lives. I know yours is one.

Lindsay MackOh, they are.

Amelia HrubyRock, you're out there. You have one. Kristen Tippett, non being. Absolutely.

Speaker 1Yes.

Amelia HrubyAnd I am honored that anyone out there counts off the grid among that list. And

Amelia HrubyIt's a joy and a pleasure

Amelia Hrubyto be here with you and all the listeners and everyone who tunes in, and to build this web of our businesses that I really deeply believe do change the world and do shift the economics of this often fucked up system we inhabit. So thank you so much again, Lindsay, for joining me. Thank you listeners for tuning in. You should absolutely unequivocally, every person hearing this podcast should go get a copy of Tarot for the Wild Soul. Get your hands on the Soul Tarot deck.

Amelia HrubyIt's gorgeous. You're gonna want it. You're gonna learn so much. Whether you are a brand new beginner or you have a decades long practice, I can confidently say there's a lot here for you. So head head to the link in the show notes for all of that.

Amelia HrubyAnd I think that's it for now.

Amelia HrubySo until next time, we will see you off the grid.

Speaker 1Bacteria. If you're in my Wikipedia, it'll say I kinda hate social media. Host a picture of myself. This? Do you like this?

Speaker 1Leave a comment?

Amelia HrubyOkay.

Amelia HrubyThat was an abridged version of Social Media by Surfer Boy and Rectangle. To hear the entire song, find Surfer Boy on Spotify or head to the link in the show notes. Thanks so much to them for sharing the song with us, as well as to Melissa Caitlin Carter, who sings our theme song that you hear at the start of every show. I'm your host, Emilia Frooby, and if you enjoyed this episode, I hope you will download the free Leading Social Media Toolkit at offthegrid.funtoolkit. Until next time, I will see you Off the Grid.

Amelia HrubyHello again. It's me, Amelia. Remember me? That voice you just heard seconds ago? I'm popping back in because I wanna share a special gift with you or three gifts in fact as thanks for staying tuned in to the very end of this episode.

Amelia HrubyThis spring, I led a program called Close Biz Friends inside the interweb, and I helped people create resonant free resources that they could share strategically on their marketing channels and then amplify their visibility through cross promotion. And I'm arriving here to share a few resources that folks created in that program with you. The first is from Andy of Spiral Tending. Andy's a therapist, and they made a super helpful toolkit with 10 ways to market your healing business when time and money are scarce. I got a few new ideas from it myself, and if you're a healer, I highly recommend heading to the link in the show notes and grabbing it right now.

Amelia HrubyThe second gift I wanna offer you is from Heather Backs of Small Business Rodeo. Heather's created a simple tech stack field guide that is an essential resource for anyone who's ever wondered, what invoicing tool should I use, or where do I find a good calendar link, how do I pick a website platform, or an email service provider? If you've ever wondered any of those things, then you're definitely going to want this amazing Notion dashboard full of recommended tools and advice on building your tech stack without overcomplicating it. So head to the show notes to grab that free resource today. And then finally, Julia Kiambi has just launched the free Soulepreneur Corner, which provides support for the inner work side of running a business.

Amelia HrubyJulia is a medical doctor turned intuitive guide, and her Soulepreneur Corner missives are beautiful compliments to the very practical, tactical work that we do here at Off The Grid. So if you could use Soulepreneur Corner messages or a simple tech stack field guide or 10 ways to market your healing business when time and money are scarce, head to the show notes to grab those free resources today. And thank you so much again for being here. I am forever grateful that you tune into the show. And until next time, you know where to find me Off the Grid.