🔒 Live-Building a Small Biz AI Policy — with Dr. Kate Henry

Amelia HrubyWelcome to the Off the Grid Clubhouse. Thank you for being a paid supporter of the show. Let's get off the grid and into this super secret episode. Hello, and welcome to the Off the Grid Clubhouse. This is our private space for paid supporters of the show, and I am your host, Amelia Ruby. Today's video episode is very special and it's a bit of a follow-up to the AI series that I hosted on the podcast feed in March. Today, I'm gonna be joined by a wonderful clubhouse member off the grid supporter, Doctor. Kate Henry, who is a productivity coach, a public academic, and a podcaster.

We produce or edit her show honing in at softer sounds. And I'm really excited to have her here to help sort of live build an AI policy for her small business. So Kate is a solo business owner. Who's been thinking a lot about how she wants to use AI in her own work and her client work with her new virtual assistant that she's hired. And so we're gonna get into that together. So if you have listened to any of the AI series, if you're a bit dropped into this conversation we've been having, and you've been thinking about what would my AI policy be? How do I wanna use this in my business or not? This episode is definitely for you. We're gonna try to model how you can think through this or find a friend and talk through it with them. Like I'm gonna do with Kate today.

So hi, Kate. Welcome to the clubhouse.

Dr. Kate HenryHi, Amelia. Thanks for having me, and thanks for helping me with this. You're like, we're definitely the person I went to when I was like, yikes. I need one of these. Please help me.

Amelia HrubyWell, I'm thrilled. I'm so excited that you're here, and I'm pumped to have this conversation. So I made a notion doc for us that I am going to share my screen. So folks, if you're just hearing this on a podcast feed, you can listen, but I will be live typing notes and you probably wanna watch the video. So if you're watching the video, good job. If you're not just know, you might not see some of the things that we're saying or sharing, but I'm gonna open this up. There we go. And so to talk through your AI policy, we're gonna kind of take the same notes that I shared or the same process I walked through in my, how to build a thoughtful AI policy episode. We'll talk a little bit about thoughts and feelings, where you're currently landing with AI. We will talk about different types of AI and the things you're using, and then we'll go through boundaries in your use of AI, your team or collaborators use and your clients.

And then from there, we'll try to start writing something up and seeing how it goes. So does that sound good?

Dr. Kate HenryYes, please. Thank you.

Amelia HrubyYay. Alright. Let's start with a big old feelings dump or feelings dumpster as I've been thinking of it lately. Where are you arriving today? Like, what are your current thoughts and feelings about AI, particularly in small business?

Dr. Kate HenrySo I run my business. It's just me and an assistant, and I feel a lot of responsibility. I want to run a business that aligns with my values and my ethics. So it's like, I'm able to do that in terms of like anti urgency or anti perfectionism, but like with the advent of AI, That's something that I also feel driven by my values and want to lock my talk and show up in a way that I feel good about. And I also feel very little AI literacy.

Like what I know of AI I've learned from you and from the podcast. And that's something that I'm beginning to feel is not something I just want to be like, well, I just don't know what it is and I just don't use it. And like, I feel like there's more of a responsibility I need to have around that. Instead of just being like, well, I don't like it and I don't use it. So my feelings around that are like, okay. I don't actually really want to use it, but how do I, you know, like my clients are using it. It's something that like, it would be good for me to know a little bit about it, but I also want to be explicit in the work that I do. And I do, like, I'm just reflecting on this in the moment, but like, you know, there is like a slight concern in there as well. Like if I am like, no, these are the ways I, I will not use AI. Like, will that.

Will potential workshop clients or potential folks who, like, I have had folks on discovery calls who really like AI is embedded into the work that they do. And I've been like, I don't think I'm the right person for you. So there's some, there's some emotions tied to that in terms of like financial security as well. If I, what decisions I make. So I feel kind of like rock in a hard place, like personal values and ethics.

And also like, I don't want to be left behind in

Amelia Hrubythe work that I do, especially in the

Dr. Kate Henryproductivity sphere, which is very like AI is sphere, which is very like AI is something that really can support productivity. So help. Anybody else? Those are a lot of feelings.

Amelia HrubyYeah. Yeah. Okay. This makes so much sense. And thank you for sharing. I, first of all, I wanna say that one of the reasons I was excited to talk to you about this is because in my ten years of podcasting and five years of podcasting through softer sounds, I have, I don't think I've ever had a client who was less urgent or less perfectionistic than you are. And not in a way where your show doesn't get made. I've definitely had clients who, I guess, like if you would consider them kind of ghosting me as less urgent or like bailing on their show that has happened, but we have worked together for a year now and on the podcast specifically, And I have just found time and time again, that you are so gracious and you truly live these values of like, this is important to me and I wanna make it well. And also I'm not gonna rush. Things are gonna be flexible.

They're gonna be spacious and living in that with you kind of made me believe that client work could be good again after a period of a lot of stress. And it made me so interested to think about like, what is an AI policy with someone who's like truly living out their values in their business? So I just wanted to offer you that compliment before we get into the AI of it all, because I think it's, it's hard to find and it's hard to do to really root out those, you know, white supremacist corporate culture values.

Dr. Kate HenryThank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's something that I intentionally have been efforting towards setting up my business in that way. Or like, for example, like also working with my assistant is very important to me to give as much run time and like to be like, if I, if there's something that needs to be done within forty eight hours, it's not, I'm not gonna ask for it. Like that just feels that doesn't align with me where I'm at and the way that I've built the work that I do. So thank you. That feels good to hear.

Amelia HrubyYeah. And I also then see why it feels like being between a rock and a hard place with AI, because what I'm hearing you say, which I think is really the tenor of so many of the conversations I had in the AI series is like, There's this for so many of us are just kind of gut instinct or informed opinion that we don't wanna use AI, or we wanna use it as like minimally as possible. We understand it's being pushed on us. We understand it's being incorporated in the tools we're already using. We have to grapple with that.

But I talk to so many business owners who don't want to use generative or agentic AI in their work. And also we're seeing it take over the spaces that we're in. We're seeing clients come to us who are using it in really, you know, big ways or it permeates their entire business or work ecosystem. And so we have to grapple with like, how much are we willing to engage with that or not? And it hadn't even occurred to me until you said it, that you're working in the productivity space and AI is definitely sold as like a massive productivity tool, essentially.

It's supposed to make us all more productive. And so I, I imagine, and I feel for you on this sense of like, AI is like coming for your job and it's supposed to be something you should be using to make your job easier and better for yourself and your clients. And so, yeah, I just wanna like sit I'm just gonna join you in between the rock and the hard place. We can make space for two there because it sounds, it sounds really hard. How does that, how does that show up in your body?

Amelia HrubyLike where do you feel it day to day in your work?

Dr. Kate HenryI mean, I feel it in my body. I love somatic thinking, which, you know, because you edit the podcast and I'm always like, how does this feel in my body, this conversation? Like I definitely feel like I feel right now as we're talking, like in like my face, like this real sense of curiosity, Like, I am sort of, like, curious and, like, feeling, like, in this moment, like, this is like an interesting, like, puzzle to solve and also something where I'm like, oh, I do want to step up and be like, no. This is what I claim, and this is what I show up for. So that does kind of feel a little empowering.

Uh-huh. But also it does like, I think there's, like, some, like, somatic feeling of, like, a little like, the back of my body, like, a little, like, insecurity or vulnerability around, like, oh, am I gonna be, like, the one dinosaur productivity scholar who, like, just, like, has chosen to be a Luddite and, like, doesn't get invited to, you know, work with clients on huge contracts because I don't know how to use whatever or I won't use it. You know? So there is a little bit of, like, fascination, curiosity, and problem solving, but also like, oh, I don't want to what is the phrase? Like cut off your nose despite your face or something.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, what a weird, what a gross phrase. I don't know. It's probably from like the eighteen hundreds and like some weird, like machinery.

Amelia HrubyYeah. Yeah. No, I, I appreciate you taking us into kind of where it lands in your, your soma and how it's both giving you the sense of like the curiosity that moves you like toward it. And I could see you're like with your hands, you're, like, you're, like, pulling this energy up, like, from the gut and out the throat almost. It feels like it's really truly coming forward. And also that sense that's, like, pulling away. The back body is, like, shrinking, and it's, like, not wanting to engage. And I think that that goes to where you started or something you shared earlier, where you said that you feel like you have very little AI literacy. And I think that while I certainly am not an AI scholar, nor am I interested in becoming one, and the more I learn about AI, the more questions I have more than answers, like how it, how the technology works, what's happening here. I feel more, more and more clear on what's at stake, but less and less clear on how the technology works the more that I learn.

I think that, you know, that sense of, I don't have AI literacy and I need to develop it, something I've just seen come up over and over again is many of us. Maybe I shouldn't say many of us. I see, I talk to many people who seem to use their sort of like ignorance about AI as a bit of a shield. I don't really know what's happening there is what they'll say to me. And it's interesting because they'll say that as both a reason they keep using AI or they don't use AI.

Like, I don't really know what's going on, so I'm not gonna use it. Or I don't really know what's going on, so I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing. Because if I don't look under the hood, I can't know the problems or the issues here. And I think it's, it's quite brave and important to try to step into, okay, I need to learn more so that I can make, like have an informed opinion. And this is something we're trained in as, you know, former academics and scholars.

Right? The purpose is to be able to make the argument, to have an informed point of view. And I think we can follow, at least what I've been doing is like following my gut feelings into that point of view and then informing myself and shifting along the way. So that's some of what we're gonna do together. And I think that that's really what I want everyone to do, I guess, is just like, stop, like take off the veil of ignorance, I suppose.

Amelia HrubyYeah. I don't think it's an excuse anymore. Personally, I don't think that. I think we all need to learn. And then if people are making intentional choices, I will respect them for the most part, at least people in the off the grid sphere. But I'm a little bit tired of the, like, well, if I don't know, I'll just kind of do whatever and it doesn't matter. I think learning is important.

Dr. Kate HenryYeah. Yes. So, okay. All of that said,

Amelia Hrubyget off my soapbox. So something you shared with me before we hopped on was this video by Doctor. Fatima on how to anti AI better and her problems with the AI movement. Do you wanna, could you tell me anything you know about this or how it wraps into sort of your feelings and where you're arriving today before we move into writing a policy?

Dr. Kate HenryYeah. I was just telling you, one of my, my clients recommended this and I saw that Devin price shared it on his Instagram as well, because he was interviewed for this episode. I just learned about Doctor. Fatima's work and. This is a long video. I'm like three quarters of the way through like a two hour video. And I am someone who I've I have just been like, well, I'm anti AI. I don't use it. Like, it's terrible for the environment. These data centers are, like, ruining people's lives.

You they're like like, I have, like, these views. And and she thus far in the video, like the first part of the video is like, yes, these are all that is all true. And like all of the cited information. And I I should report back when I finished the video, but like, it's also then trending to talking about like, okay, people are going to use these tools. However, so how can we do this in a harm reductionist approach, which I am like very excited about and, and on in line with.

I don't, at this point, feel like that means I want to use AI, but it's like or use like a, like, generative AI or agentic AI. But it is like, I've really felt like morally, a lot of shame around. Like I I used AI like once years ago to make a workshop title or like to make a podcast title. Titles are very hard for me. And then I feel like carry that shame with me. Like like this, like, Scarlet a, Scarlet AI, you know? So like, this is like, it's interesting being, like, listening to or watching this video by doctor Fatima about it's sort of like helping me unpack the, like, moral, like the moralization I've put on it. And like for myself specifically and for, and for others, right? Like to not be so like, this thing is bad. It's ruining the world.

If you do it, you're contributing to ruining the world. And. Yeah. So it's, it's like my thinking is opening up a little bit instead of just being like, it's bad, don't use it. I mean, I don't want people to use it still, but like, I'm, I'm not going to use it. I don't know. It's it's complicated, but this is kind of crack. Like, I'm glad that I watched part of this before we had our conversation today, because I think otherwise I may have shown up and been like, this thing is evil, and I still think it's evil. It's so tricky. I guess the question is I'm I'm like, I'm curious about a harm reductionist approach, and I really feel for, like, my friends who are teaching college.

Thank God I'm not teaching it. Like, I taught I stopped teaching college in 2020 or 2019. I don't, it must be incredibly difficult to do that right now. So like, if I were teaching college, I would, I think be much more invested in developing my AI literacy. So I could teach my students AI literacy because they're going to use it anyways. All right. I'm going to get off my soapbox here, but I do recommend folks check out this video if they're, if they're curious and they want like something that can supplement the series that you put out.

Amelia HrubyYeah. Yeah. I'm really excited to watch it. And I think that, I mean, so many things that you just said resonate with me. It was really interesting when I opened the AI conversation thread in the clubhouse, Most folks who shared there were, have never used AI or were no longer using AI. And many of them are grappling with the exact same thing you are, the sense of, I don't want to use AI. And then, but do I think like it's okay if other people do, or actually, maybe I actually have like a really strong moral conviction that it's wrong for anyone to use AI. And I'm obsessed with your Scarlet Letter, Scarlet AI. Thank you. What a Hawthorne reference.

Love to bring it through. I yeah. It's like if we were being branded for using AI, would we behave differently? And also, I don't know that we would. It it's been interesting to see it really be normalized. Mhmm. For myself, I will say, like, the more that I have learned about AI tools, the more I learn about the technology, the more, like, harm reduction has become the interesting sort of path to me. I feel like this came out a bit in my conversation with JJ that was in the clubhouse, my spouse, JJ, where, you know, I shared that like my conviction around AI right now primarily comes from the fact that I have very strong critiques and distrust of the companies that own the most popular AI models. I do not trust OpenAI. I do not trust Anthropic.

I do not trust Google. I do not trust whoever owns perplexity. You know, if at least the first three of those have contracts with the department of the defense, like I don't trust them at all, and I don't wanna use their tools. And that's like a strong conviction that I have. That does not extend for me to all AI. I'm actually very interested in local models, in smaller language models, in tools that are really thinking about the environmental impact that they have. I have a lot of curiosity about the technology, but I am unwilling to engage with these companies that I think are just like wreaking havoc in so many ways. And that's very different than other people who have like a strong, like conviction against AI because of, you know, labor issues, which are very real and other people who just are uninterested in, you know, technological creation or like in AI generating anything. They're like really holding true to like the human spirit of creativity and and generativity. And I, I respect all of it.

I think there are different reasons to come to, you know, a sort of distrust or even anti op oppositional relationship to AI. And I'm excited to watch this video and I just thought it was worth bringing in, like, these are all the feelings we're kind of sitting in and with as we sit down to write an AI policy. Right? No one listening to this is sitting down to write an AI policy that's gonna be like, in my business, we use AI all the time and everyone should be able to

Dr. Kate Henrytry to. Right? Like, That's

Amelia Hrubynot the policy we're about to write here. And it's not what folks listening to off the grid are doing. I think what I'm seeing is either people who are trying to articulate all the reasons they don't use AI or people who are saying like, okay, you know, these are the tools I use that have AI embedded. These are the ways I'm willing to work with clients when they're using AI and these are the things I'm not willing to do. And so we're like, what it really comes down to is articulating what we're willing to do, but then really thinking about, okay, other people I interact with are going to be using it.

And what are my stated boundaries or beliefs around that? So, yes. I hear you in those instances, it's not helpful to be like, well, all my clients who have ever used an AI scheduler are evil and I have to break up with them immediately. Like that's not a helpful or supportive or empathetic place to begin from. And that's not where we're starting from here. Even if, you know, as you came to like inside, you're like, well, I do kind of think the tools are a little evil anyway.

Dr. Kate HenryI could jump right back on the soapbox, but I won't because so we can carry on.

Amelia HrubyI'm like, we can just chat about AI, but let's talk about a policy. So the next thing I wanna talk about before we get to boundaries is just how you're currently using AI. So in the series, I talked a little bit about kind of what I see as different types of AI tools. There's assistive AI, generative AI and agentic AI. So I would say at this point, assistive AI is what we're seeing in AI search results. It's what we're seeing in some of the, like, you know, I really like in Gmail originally when the AI results were just like short phrases, like works for me, that would be assistive. Now I think Gmail is actually doing more generative responses for people. It's reading your threads and suggesting custom replies, but like the sort of stock things popping in the AI search results, that's assistive AI to me. Generative AI is where something is being, text or image is being generated from a prompt. So it's being written for you, even if you are prompting it and changing it and working with it, it's the AI tool that is doing the writing or the creation.

And then agentic AI typically is working like an assistant and moving between different aspects of your work or life. So for instance, within Notion, they now have AI agents that can read databases and write emails for you, or make a weekly report on all of your sales based on your what's in your finance database. And that's happening agentically, but it's all AI generated. So they're like, again, these categories are all blurred, but I have found them helpful to think about, like, what do what do I want to happen and how how is AI doing that for me? So with that in mind, I'm curious, like, what AI tools are you currently using or what tools do you use that have AI embedded in them?

Dr. Kate HenryYeah. I am using

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Dr. Kate Henryin

Amelia Hrubythe clubhouse.