🌸 Creative Ecosystems, Community-Based Business & Breaking Up with Your Personal Brand — with Natalie Brite

Speaker 0Let's go off the grid. Okay. Let's go off the grid. Okay. I know that you really wanna put your phone away.

Speaker 0Yeah. Let's go off

Amelia HrubyHello, and welcome to Off the Grid, a podcast about sharing your work and making money online without relying on social media or big tech. I'm your host, Amelia Freebee, and on this show, I share stories, strategies, and experiments for starting, growing, or simply making it work in creative small business with radical generosity and energetic sovereignty. Today on the show, I am joined by a very special guest who shares in those values and in this project of running a creative business with our dignity, our humanity, and our care intact. And before I tell you all about them, I do want to remind you that this show is paired with a very special and potent free resource. It's called the Leaving Social Media Toolkit.

Amelia HrubyAnd inside that toolkit, you'll find a five step plan for breaking up with any platform, a list of 100 ways to share your work and life without social media, and a creative marketing ideas database so that as you hear things talked about on the show, you can collect those ideas and even make plans for seasonal marketing experiments. Speaking of seasonal marketing experiments, we are getting ready for summer here at Off the Grid, and by we, I mean me. I am preparing for my asynchronous July, which is a month where I have committed to doing no Zoom calls for work. So I'm very excited and getting ready for that. I also have some behind the scenes projects in the works.

Amelia HrubyThe off the grid clubhouse will be moving from Substack to Ghost this summer, and I've been setting up some of the things I need behind the scenes to make that happen. I'm also going to be sprucing up the Leaving Social Media toolkit that I just mentioned, and I think I forgot to say that you can get it at offthegrid.fun/toolkit, which you can. I will be sprucing that up and adding a new start here page to the off the grid website because now that we are over a 160 episodes in, plus all the Clubhouse episodes, There are over 200 episodes I've created on all sorts of themes, and I wanna make it easier for new listeners to dive in. So if you are a new listener, welcome. For now, head to offthegrid.fun/toolkit to get the free leading social media toolkit.

Amelia HrubyAnd very soon, I will have a brand new start here page for you since that is one of my summer projects. This summer, I also think I might be working on another book that is a super secret. I mean, not a secret. It's just I'm not sure yet. Probably premature to say it on the podcast, but, you know, if you want another book from me, send me a little energy as I work on that this summer.

Amelia HrubyAnd I'm also planning to do some more sunsetting at softer sounds, stepping back with some more podcast editing clients, really transitioning into off the grid being my full time business. So I am taking advantage of the summer to step back from some of my more public facing work and dig deep into my creative process and serving the folks who already support the show financially either in the clubhouse or the interweb. And as we dive into that, let me tell you all about today's guest. Natalie Bright is the founder and creative director of Do Good Biz, an ethical creative studio for conscious leaders and the movements they're building. On their Substack newsletter, Natalie writes about creativity, ecosystems, and doing work rooted in care.

Amelia HrubyThey are also very critical of social media in the soft, supportive way we do things around here. Together, we get into the consequences of social media dependence, a step by step breakdown of how Natalie reinvented the marketing strategy for do good biz. We talk about what it actually means to take an ecosystem's approach to business because lots of people say a business is an ecosystem, but what do they actually mean by that? And we discuss why we think a creative ecosystem model is more powerful than the personal brand model, even though we also love personal brands. Let's dive in to my conversation with Natalie Bright.

Amelia HrubyHi, Natalie. Welcome to Off the Grid.

Natalie BriteThank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Amelia HrubyI found your Substack, I don't even know, at some point in the past two years, and I definitely had a little bit of a feeling of, like, have I discovered an Internet doppelganger? Like, we write about such similar things. And so I reached out to you to be like, let's be Internet friends. And now we're here today. I'm so pumped.

Amelia HrubyI

Natalie Briteknow. I know. I love those kinds of connections where it's like somebody that gets it too.

Amelia Hruby100%. And I also think it just really speaks to something like shared in in both of our ethos, which is, like, if you really take an ecosystems approach to your work, then you understand that, like, nothing is purely singular, and the goal isn't to be the only one. Right? I love that there are many of us having these conversations. I love that we're both sharing similar ideas from our own unique perspectives.

Amelia HrubyWe can build and grow together. To me, that's embedded in the idea of a creative ecosystem, and it's why this isn't business as usual. So it just feels really aligned all the way down.

Natalie Brite100% agree.

Amelia HrubySo I wanted to take us in by talking a bit about your business and your business journey. So you run a studio called Do Good Biz. And from my, like, reading your work on the Internet outsider perspective, it feels like your business has undergone a really deep transformation over the past few years. Can you tell us a bit about how your work has changed, both from how your perspective on small business has shifted and also, like, why you've decentered social media in that process, which, of course, I was excited to see.

Natalie BriteYes. Oh my gosh. I feel like we could have just a conversation around this alone for days. Mhmm. I mean, I've been working for myself for over a decade and, you know, when I first started, it was such a different world, like, such a different world.

Natalie BriteThere wasn't yet live video, you know, it was just so simple in a way where as the years progressed, it just became so complex and so complicated where, you know, trying to keep up with the speed of the online business world really started weighing on me. And I had a lot of moments where, you know, and I think a lot of us get to this place where it's like, is this actually aligned with how I wanna do business? Is this actually aligned with my values and what I stand for and stand on? And I had so many different moments of, I would say, like, pure meltdown in a way of just, like, I can't do this. I can't do it this way, you know?

Natalie BriteAnd over the years, you know, I didn't start as the studio we are today. I actually originally had a coaching and consulting business for small businesses and did much more of that consulting world. And through that, it wasn't what I wanted to do. Like, I can do it, but it's not what I wanted to do. And that's kind of where, long story short, Do Good Biz kind of was birthed.

Natalie BriteBut getting into kind of what shaped where we are today versus where we were as a studio, we grew really fast. And sure, that's exciting and wonderful. And also, it was such a big lesson because through that, like, rapid growth, I had to really step back and be like, wait a minute. Do I even wanna grow? Do I even want it to transform into this entity that it became?

Natalie BriteWhat was it? Like, this time last year, we had a team of, like, eight, and it was because we had grown so fast and so rapidly that we just were like, well, we need to keep hiring more people to to handle all of this. And through all of that, I quickly realized a couple things. I don't wanna be a boss. I'm not good at it.

Natalie BriteI have no desire to do it. I don't like to manage people, and I don't want a big team. And so it was such an eye opening experience of, like, all of these, you know, success metrics and examples of business that we've been handed just aren't my cup of tea. And I think I've tried to force myself into it so many times, and then it, like, bites me in the ass. And I'm like, this isn't actually it.

Natalie BriteSo it's been such a wild journey where now I feel like for the first time in my over decade of working for myself, I'm actually like, this is what I wanna do. Like, this is it. This is not just what I wanna do for work though. It's how I wanna live. I have more time, more spaciousness to do things outside of how I make money, to spend time on things that I really care about that isn't attached to how do I make money off of this.

Natalie BriteSo it's been such a such a wild ride, and in the process of that, so much came up for me around social media and running a business on it versus off of it. You know, I started my business heavily on Instagram. That's where I kinda built the brand at first. And then I really just had this tumultuous relationship with it where it was like, I felt like I had to be on it. I felt like I was stuck on Instagram especially, and I just, like, depended on it.

Natalie BriteBut then when I really looked at it, I was like, no. I don't. I don't. That's just a story I'm telling myself. And so, yeah, I had to really get very honest with, again, coming back to the values.

Natalie BriteDoes it align with what I actually believe in? And a lot of the way that I approach business is very anti capitalist and very nature based. And it just social media has always felt like such a polar opposite to how I wanna do things and how I see things. And especially over the last year, just seeing different decisions that Meta has made and continues to make, I can't subscribe to it. I just can't.

Natalie BriteAnd, I mean, it's difficult, right, because every platform, if you're really big, they're not great. There's unethical gross stuff everywhere, but we have to kind of pick and choose which ones can we feel okay with versus not. And Meta was my hard line of, like, I just no. I'm not doing it. And I would say the last two years has been heavily dedicated to no dependency on social media and just really focusing on community based growth and relationship based growth and SEO and website and, you know, all of that kind of stuff and just learning new skills that don't force me into algorithms and performance and all of that stuff.

Amelia HrubyI know it's a lot that changes as you move through all of those questions and the answers that arise. I'm so curious. If I remember correctly, like, you did a lot of design and branding work and also, like, ran social campaigns for people, and we're designing people's Instagram posts and things like that. In your journey of, like, stepping away from social media, how did you navigate, like, I'm doing this all for my clients? I mean, I assume, especially that, like, sort of recurring revenue of we run people's social media all the time was probably something you really had to figure out.

Amelia HrubyLike, how do I step away from this? How do I shift my model? So is there anything you could share about how you shifted your offerings as you made these choices?

Natalie BriteThat's such a powerful question. And literally, as you're asking it, I have, like, this flashback of a very specific moment that it was like, nope. Can't do this anymore. And it was, I think, about two years ago, and my partner and I were on, like, a holiday out in Mount Hood. You know, we rented, like, a little Airbnb by the river.

Natalie BriteIt was, like, so beautiful and wonderful, but I was working because I was having to still check-in with accounts and manage accounts and make sure content got published and all of this stuff. And I was so upset about it, where it was just like, when was the last time that I was able to not have to check anything, to actually have a full day off where I didn't even have to, like, think about anything, check anything, nothing. I didn't know. It it had been since we started managing large accounts and multiple accounts. And mind you, like, me checking in on a holiday, I wasn't even the only one.

Natalie BriteWe had other team members that were also having to do it for other people too. So it was, like, also kind of the guilt of what kind of standard am I setting for our team. And for the studio of, like, we don't have time off, but yet we promote sustainability and rest and all of these things that we're not practicing, it was such like a heart to heart with myself moment. And that was in the fall. I realized, like, okay.

Natalie BriteWe need to really sit down and restructure things. And we let go of 75% of our retainer management partners and kept the ones that we just really believed in and really aligned with what they do. And now we still do take management retainers, but we have a very specific cap. We only take very specific types of people that we really align with the work, and we have really clear boundaries. Like, we don't do anything on the weekends no matter what.

Natalie BriteWe don't touch it. Very clear boundaries. But it definitely restructured so much in terms of the conversations and the guidance that we provide clients now where one of the first things, like, if we take on somebody's marketing to manage it, we emphasize we don't just do social media management. We don't. And so we actually focus on long form content, podcasting, blogging.

Natalie BriteWe have a lot of people who do other forms of marketing that's in person. So we help people set up their events or network locally to build community and do things in person that way. And so just really shifting to make sure that we're not encouraging people to get stuck in social media and to build their ecosystems in a much more varied way with multiple touch points so that if they decide, I don't wanna be on social media, they don't have to be on it. And, yeah, a lot of educating people on why and how. I've noticed, and I'm curious if you've noticed this too, but there's, like, such a block for so many entrepreneurs and micro businesses and stuff where it's like, I just can't get off of it.

Natalie BriteI think a lot of it's habitual too, but this total dependency where there's no imagination outside of social media, it's like my imagination stops at social media marketing, and it's like there's so many other ways. Right?

Amelia HrubyYeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think literally that block is the entire scene and premise of this podcast. Like, it's why Off the Grid is still a show about and for creative business and not simply a, like, leave social media show for everyone. And, of course, lots of people listen to the show.

Amelia HrubyPerhaps, dear listener, you tuned in or, like, not a quote, unquote business owner, but I think that I have always been really interested in this sort of myth and justification that, like, I can't leave social media because I run a business, or I have to be on social media for my business. Like, I get those arguments so much. And it's not that I don't understand where that's coming from, or I don't understand the logic of it, but I loved how you put it that it's like, there's no imagination to that logic. There is no expansive personal political imagining there. And I think that we really need that in this time.

Amelia HrubyAnd so in the off the grid space and in our interweb community, like, lots of people here have social media, but we all agree that it's never the only thing that we're doing. It's not even the primary thing that we're doing. And it's why the way I talk about the show is, like, we do all of this without relying on social media, like you said, like, without dependence. It's not that, you know, I insist that every single listener show me proof you've deleted your social media.

Unknown/Song AudioThat would

Amelia Hrubybe really funny if I attempted that, and that would be, like, a wild choice to make. But, no, that's not it to me. Like, I I'm not interested in a black and white approach, but I'm with you on, like I do believe we have to imagine otherwise because it's so clear the harm that these platforms and companies are doing at this point.

Natalie BriteYes. The mental consequences to you know, I think about that a lot of just, like, my partner, not on social media at all. And his relationship is so vastly different than mine is because of his lack of experience with it. And so just noticing how free there's, like, this freedom versus this feeling caged when you're you're so stuck in it. And the consequences of that, the consequences on our systems, the consequences on how we feel about ourselves, how we feel about the world and other people.

Natalie BriteAnd now with all the propaganda and all of this other stuff, it's just like it's really intense, and we're taught, you know, with the attention economy to just, like, consume, consume, consume, scroll, scroll, scroll with little critical thinking, little intention behind it. And that's one of the biggest benefits I've seen to, like, this decentering of it is now when I get on, like, I scroll Instagram all the time, but it's like animal videos and gardening tips and, like, stuff where when I'm on it, it's just like I actually leave feeling good. I don't leave feeling, like, shame about myself. Whereas before I did, I always felt like I wasn't doing enough, I wasn't being enough, and I had to change something about myself to fit in to what that space was, you know, expecting of me. So it is it's a it's a freedom to no longer depend on it.

Amelia HrubyYeah. Absolutely. I always think of this as liberatory work. And it's so interesting that you started with, like, your partner who's off social media or doesn't use it at all because I think people always expect me to have that experience, but my spouse is in fact an digital editor and social media manager at their job. So, like, social media is alive and well in our household, but I don't use it at all.

Amelia HrubyAnd it's so interesting to, like, see the ways that we rub up against these things in our life, and to see, like, what helps us imagine otherwise. So for some people, it's someone who's totally not there and seeing that sense of freedom. For other people, it's probably hearing you talk about how through changing your relationship to the platform, you've shifted, like, what you're responding to there and how it makes you feel. I'm interested in all of these strategies. And, also, I try to hold a pretty hard line that, like, there is no being on the apps that doesn't impact us.

Amelia HrubyIt is always impacting us, whether it's on the level of our mental health, on the level of our privacy, on the level of, you know, the behavioral manipulation that these apps are trying to do there. There is an impact, but we each get to decide what is the price I'm willing to pay for that. And sometimes, frankly, the really cute animal video, you're willing to pay a price for that.

Natalie Brite100%. And you just made me remember another thing that, like, I have found to be incredibly helpful is intent behind usage and reason for each platform too. So, like, I use threads for non business. Like, I actually use threads to find out political things going on here in Portland, political things going on in the country and the world. It's a very, like, I go there because I have specific journalists and and independent speakers that are sharing things that I can get there, but that's it.

Natalie BriteAnd whereas, like, Instagram is rarely used, but when it is used, it's like random cute stuff or DIY stuff, art stuff. So it's like, I think that's the other thing too of, like, for me, meta is so toxic and so scary in terms of their practices and influence on this planet that I 100 agree with what you're saying of, like, we have to really also acknowledge, like, okay. Every time I log in, this is what I'm voting for. This is what I'm subscribing to. And do we even need to log in?

Amelia HrubyYeah. I think there are sort of, like, two frameworks that I've come to throughout the course of making the show that I always find helpful in asking that question. And, like, the one is, like, if you're using social media, the two questions I always ask are, like, how does it feel and is it working? And that is it working question gets to your point about intention. Like, being really clear about, like, what is my intention for my use of this platform, and am I getting that thing?

Amelia HrubyLike, is the result I hope for happening? Is the impact I want happening? So if what you want, if your intention is to learn from certain political creators who are there, like, is that happening? Maybe it is. Maybe you're able to find them, and it's great.

Amelia HrubyMaybe they're so buried by the algorithm, you never see them, and so you have to decide, like, am I gonna change my behavior by just going to their profiles, or am I gonna get off because I realize I'm not seeing them at all? I find that really helpful. And then I also think the other sort of framework I've started using is, like, sort of understanding our use or not use of these platforms through what I've started thinking of as, like, the three p's. Like, I think there are personal, professional, and political reasons that we make these choices. Right?

Amelia HrubyLike, it sounds like to me, you're on Instagram for personal reasons often. The cat videos, the garden like, the cute stuff, like, that's there. Many people are on Instagram for professional reasons, like, they're thinking about their business or their job. I also hear this a lot with, like, LinkedIn. People are on LinkedIn for professional reasons.

Amelia HrubyBut then there are also, like, the political reasons. And all of that can be reasons for leaving too. Like, some people leave social media for personal reasons. It feels really bad. Some leave for professional reasons.

Amelia HrubyIt's not actually working. And some leave for political reasons. Like, the misalignment between the company and the world and what I want to see is too vast, and I won't stay here any longer. And I think being able to ask how does it feel and is it working on each of those levels provides a lot of clarity. It's like a really good journaling exercise for anyone tuned in.

Natalie BriteExcellent. Like, excellent. Excellent. And it is it's like once you find those answers within yourself, getting really honest with, okay, am I willing to do what I need to do in response to it? Because I think that's the hard thing too is I go through periods where it's like I'm so grossed out by something that I'm like, I'm done.

Natalie BriteLike, not getting on this for a long time, but then I might be out in the garden and I'm trying to do something, and I'm like, oh, I remember so and so posted how to do this. So I'll go, like, on a platform and find it. You know? So it's like a fluid experience too, I think. You know?

Natalie BriteBut, again, it comes back to checking in with ourselves, intent, and, yeah, trusting that we can do what we probably wanna do, and it might be leaving.

Amelia HrubyYeah. And I always want off the grid to sort of be a beacon of possibility in that way. Like, as I've said many times already, I don't think everyone has to leave social media. But if you need to believe that you can, you can always come to this show for that support. Okay.

Amelia HrubyI have one more question for you about social media before I wanna move into talking more about creative ecosystems and community based business models. But before we get there, I flagged something you said earlier that I feel like I wanna pick back up on for listeners, which is you mentioned that you were, like, did a series of things to help your business leave social media. And I was just wondering if you could speak a little bit more to what are the things that you've done such that you feel like Do Good Biz doesn't need Instagram anymore.

Natalie BriteThat is probably the most important thing for people to hear right now, especially because of just how censored everything's getting even more so than it has been. To me, from a business standpoint, it is really risky to not be putting at least some energy into alternative avenues. And so that's where my headspace always has come from is, like, is this actually sustainable in the long term? If it's not, then I better start focusing on building other pathways. And so the key pathways that I've focused on over the years, the first one that comes to mind right off the bat is relationships.

Natalie BriteSo a lot of the individuals that come to our studio heard about us. They heard about us through somebody. I don't say referrals for a reason because it's not just clients that are hearing about us. It's someone I met at a coffee shop randomly in line, and I started chatting them up, and then we ended up following each other, you know, on Substack or something because of it. Or, like, another example is, like, I met this really incredible person at a local native plant pickup swap, and, like, now I follow them on Substack, and we're friends.

Natalie BriteAnd so it's like that kind of stuff where I'm a really, really big advocate of human connection and conversation that isn't a business agenda. Right? We hear you need to network. You need to do this. You need to do that.

Natalie BriteBut I think even approaching it from that headspace is so often extractive and just, like, capitalism driven where it's like, get out of all of that. Like, put that to rest and really just focus on relationship building, like, connecting with people, getting to know people, taking an interest in people. And that's been hands down the biggest thing. And I say that as someone who is quite introverted, like, I consider myself an introverted extrovert where, like, if I'm in the right space where I feel safe, I'm cool. But normally, I get very I have social anxiety.

Natalie BriteI get very nervous, and I have no problem though sparking up conversations with random people or that kind of thing. And that's really been a huge, huge thing. The other thing is extending a hand to people. So I love offering to help people with no expectation of just like, wow, you've got this thing going on. How can I support you?

Natalie BriteWhat can I do to help? Getting involved in other people's things, being a participant of other people's things, that's been huge also. Building your collaborators that they also are seeing things in the same way of wanting to focus on this kind of reciprocal business model that is focused on relationships first and community first. It's like, I have a couple people here locally in Portland that, like, they're always up for different ideas. Like, we have climate week coming up here in July, and I have a friend that we're gonna run, like, a big event for climate week locally.

Natalie BriteAnd it was solely on, oh my gosh. This would be awesome. Like, this would be so wonderful. And there was no, like, I hope hope it trickles into business or anything like that. It's really just I care about these things.

Natalie BriteI have skills and knowledge I can pass. I'm not expecting anything in return. I just wanna gift this. That's a really important mentality for me is, like, this gift economy mentality. And I find that that always supports.

Natalie BriteIt always sustains when you're coming from that place. So I know that's probably not a typical response, but I may be hopefully like a calming response for people to hear of, like, it actually doesn't have to be as, like, fancy and hard as you might think it is. It's really just being human and caring about the world around you and getting involved in it.

Amelia HrubyYou know, I really believe that, like, the best thing I did for my business was build relationships for, like, five to seven years before I started my business. And that's a really dissatisfying answer for people who are trying to start out and need to make money. But I don't really know any small business owner who wasn't independently wealthy pre starting their business, who has been able to start a successful sustainable business without a strong web of relationships. And I love so many of the things you said in there about how you build relationships, how you give of yourself and your time. Right?

Amelia HrubyLike, talking to people at the plant swap, setting up an event with a friend, doing it just for the sake of interest and impact, unless, you know, it's not a conversation about ROI or return on investment. That's, like, not what you're thinking about. What I'm hearing and what you're saying is a really beautiful balance of two of the core values of this show, radical generosity and energetic sovereignty. Right? You are so clear on what you do and don't do in the realm of your business that you can give of yourself so freely and abundantly, and then that does pour back into the business.

Amelia HrubyAnd I think that those are really important lessons to learn. And I think I can also self reflect that you and I have been in business for many years, and this was much harder for me in the beginning. When I was starting out, I would give a lot and totally burn myself out. And like, I also would pour my work into places that where there was no reciprocal energy flow. Right?

Amelia HrubyThe local chamber of commerce or some, like, business as usual entities. And, like, I think there is also just a lot of practice that comes into learning how to move within a gift economy, such that everyone is served and supported and not drained or diminished in the process.

Natalie BriteYes. 100%. And it makes me think about another kind of methodology I've always lived by is, like, a diversification of income and not depending on just one source of income. And I say that because we exist in such a really tough time where, I mean, just to try to buy groceries and pay your bills month to month is really hard for most of us at this point. I have a way of looking at work and looking at business, if you're in business, as that's all it is.

Natalie BriteIt's not my identity is no longer attached to it. It used to be for sure. But, like, it's just a job. And so at the end of the day, there are many ways to have a job. There are many ways to make money.

Natalie BriteAnd if you're feeling like you don't have enough time per se to build relationships and do things, but that's how you wanna do it, it's totally okay to be like, I'm gonna go get a part time job or do this to make money to sustain myself in my life while I build this other thing that I really care about and I wanna do it in alignment to my values and and ethics. And that's what I did. I I bartended for the first several years that I was working for myself just so that I was sustained. And I'm so grateful I did that and I was terrified to quit that job, terrified because it was like, oh, wow. I'm gonna have to rely on myself.

Natalie BriteAnd I have no problem even in my business now where it's like, okay. I don't ever wanna rely on one source of income flow because look at our economy right now. Look at what AI is doing to us right now. Like, there is a lot of wild stuff happening that's really shaking the very foundation we all are sitting on. And so, like, have a diverse way of navigating and and do it in a way that actually aligns to what you stand for and takes care of you at the same time.

Amelia HrubyYeah. I always like to insist that self employment is a spectrum. It's not like work a full time job for a boss or only exclusively do the things you wanna do in your business all the time. And I've been through those shifts myself, you know, as I've talked about on the podcast this year. Last year, my softer sounds podcast studio work just, like, dropped 50% because of the economy, because of AI, because of all these reasons.

Amelia HrubyAnd I was really glad that I had also simultaneously built off the grid into something that in 2024, the makeup of my business was 70% softer sounds, 30% off the grid, and in 2025, it was the exact opposite. And some people will hear me say that and be like, Amelia is a brilliant strategic mind. And that wasn't the strategy. I mean, I always knew I was building both things, but I didn't know it was gonna switch like that. I didn't know any of this was gonna happen.

Amelia HrubyAnd I think that that is a testament to the power of, as you've said, diverse income streams, but also of biodiversity in general. And so I'd love to bridge here into, like, asking you more questions about your creative ecosystem model. I know we both talk about businesses as creative ecosystems, but you've done some really beautiful writing emphasizing creative ecosystems over personal brands. And I wanted to ask you about this also because you do brand design. So I'm curious for you, like, what is the distinction between a creative ecosystem and a personal brand, and why is that so important?

Natalie BriteYes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Such an exciting topic.

Natalie BriteSo the way I kind of view all things is really from, like, a very, very heavy ecological framework and perspective and relating things to nature because business is so not natural. The way which our society is functioning right now is not natural. And so to get myself out of the stickiness of getting stuck in those mindsets, I always try to bring it into nature, bring it into the earth. And so from a branding perspective, branding can be really gross. It really can be really gross.

Natalie BriteAnd I say that nonjudgmentally just like it is what it is.

Amelia HrubyAnd also, like, the history of the phrase. Right? Like, to be branded, even the term has this origin and slavery and, like, Naomi Klein's written about this and, like, doppelganger and other things. So just to bring that into the room, it absolutely can be very gross. And it, in fact, comes from some very unsettling origins.

Amelia HrubySo I just wanted to bring that in.

Natalie BriteThank you. 100% because I really struggled for a long time with even being able to, like, say I do branding and I do brand design and brand strategy because it was just like, but that's not what I do. It's like, I know that's the language that people understand, but that's not really what I even do. And so in came really sitting with, like, what is it that we actually do? And one of the things that helped a lot is learning about how other people approached branding and both the design and the strategy side of things and really kind of seeing like, okay.

Natalie BriteThis is the kind of the industry standard or the industry norm, and then comparing it to our processes, our frameworks, our ideologies, and being like, okay. This is how we do it, and this is the difference that we are taking in the different approach. So with branding, I don't believe in this whole, like, image based branding of, like, I need to come off professional, or I need to come off high end white glove, or or I need to come off cool and hip. Whatever it is that we have these it almost feels like this, like, wounded inner child is functioning there of just like, I feel like I have to be this way, and I need to create a persona that is how I represent myself. And it's like, I've met a lot of business owners and individuals over the years where I'll sit down with them after kind of seeing them online, and I'm like, who are you?

Natalie BriteBecause this is not who I sell online.

Speaker 0And it's like,

Natalie Briteyeah. It's so shocking. And so that's one of the things, you know, I couldn't approach it that way. And so when I look at it from an ecosystem, it's like, yes. We're air quotes building a brand, but, no, we're actually building an entire ecosystem that your body of work lives within, your mission and vision lives within, your true honest personality lives within, not who you think you should present as, but who you actually are, what you actually stand for, and the truth of you, the truth of the work, and knowing that it can change.

Natalie BriteI've gone through so many iterations of myself over the years and I pivot and I shift whenever I feel like I'm in a new evolution, and that's okay. And I think a lot of people get this, like, thought that it has to be this static image that is consistently driven in forever, and it's like, that's not human. And so nature based business is human based business. It's natural. And so it's like thinking about it from that perspective, our brands are not just us.

Natalie BriteThey're the people that our work in, you know, touches, whether it's just somebody online, whether it's somebody in person, whether it's through word-of-mouth. There's so many different connections and interwoven pieces to the communities we're a part of near and far. You know, I work globally, so I work everywhere from where I'm located in Portland. I have clients in Ireland right now. I have clients in The UK and, like, really thinking about that web of life that's created through the work and then the trickle effect of that and the impact of that over time.

Natalie BriteAnd so I typically actually view branding from, like, I'm getting visual cues as we're talking of, like, a web of life. And our responsibility is to support that web of life through connection, through reciprocity, through relationships, through the way we show up and share and and deliver our our work. And so, yeah, it's definitely far greater of a thing than here's your mood board and some colors and, you know, here's your guidelines and buy. You know? The branding process that I love to do with people is really deep.

Natalie BriteIt's really, really intimate. It's workshopping. It's collaborative. It's not one-sided at all. We always bring everybody into the entire process every step of the way and go really, really, really deep into concepts of what they stand for, what they believe in, what they're trying to do impact wise.

Natalie BriteAnd I think that that's largely because we work so heavily with impact based, you know, creatives where their concepts aren't simple. They're very complex, very, very complex. And so I have to really honor that complexity through the approach to branding.

Amelia HrubyYou know, you have written a beautiful blog post titled why creative ecosystems matter more than personal brands. And I just wanted to read, you have this sort of beautiful, like, two column chart in there that, like, summarizes that complexity with some, like, beautiful simplicity or distillation that I wanted to share. So in the personal brand column, you have visibility, metrics, consistency, performance, optimization, and it's all built around individual output. And then in the creative ecosystem model or column here, it's relationship, reciprocity, care, collaboration, belonging built through interdependence. And so much of this, honestly, like, maps onto the feminist values that I was teaching and writing about in the very earliest iterations of my work.

Amelia HrubyIf we go back to my first book, which I never talk about, which is called 50 feminist mantras. Like, it is about these creative ecosystem values and how to use journaling as a practice to, like, reroute or establish your life from that value system. But as you were talking, I also was getting some visuals, and a really funny one came up for me that I'm just gonna share for whatever one listener is really into Lord of the Rings here. But I was getting this sort of this image of like the way you were describing the interdependence and the web, as a sort of difference between like the personal brand model is very much like building this like really tall tower so that people can see you from everywhere and you can see them. It's very much like making yourself, like, the eye of Sauron at the top of this, like, super tall tower.

Amelia HrubyAnd that is one way to gain visibility, right, to build up and away from everything, to be singular or the only one, as we mentioned at the very beginning. But the other model, the creative ecosystem model, is to essentially, like, build yourself a shire, to, like, be a hobbit, to burrow into the ground. And also like, when we think about success in those two different models, the success in the Shire is that the entire community is thriving. Success for Sauron is like complete domination and being the only one with any power ever. And I think that most listeners of this podcast, of course, are gonna desire to live in the Shire, to build a creative ecosystem.

Amelia HrubyBut something that I've really stepped into in my work over the past few years, or, like, I've really been able to bring more to fruition, is to, like, see the success of my work through the thriving of people in my communities, not simply through my own, you know, revenue, profit, milestone, accomplishment, whatever. And my favorite thing about running the interweb and making the show often is the ability to be like, well, I know that that person booked work because of this episode. I know that that advertiser doubled the size of their email list because they were partnered with me on an ad for the show. Like, it's about the mutual flourishing, which is so different than what traditional, quote, unquote, branding work espouses.

Natalie Brite100%. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because instantly, I was thinking about monocultures and, you know, the normal way in America, The United States to handle, like, your yard is this, like, monoculture, kill everything and put down this imported grass and imported plants that are probably invasive and have this, like, singular thing in your yard that then does not support anything.

Natalie BriteIt doesn't support the natives, the flora and fauna that is native, and it's just like it's Sauron, you know, and it's just this, like, singular thing that really is not sustainable in any capacity. We actually have been, like, going completely native on our land. And to see like, especially now that it's, you know, getting warmer and stuff like that, and to see the insects, the animals, the new natives just, like, popping up that were not put here, it's wild, and it's so cool. And it's just, like, by just allowing things to be sustained, the life that's created beyond myself, you know, and I think that's so fulfilling and so desirable, whereas doing it the the solo kind of influencer way of, like, I'm this influencer business, and it's all about me, and it's all about, you know, what I'm doing in my successes, that really perpetuates such a superior, weird dynamic. It just doesn't resonate with me.

Natalie BriteThat's not the way that I want to see the world thrive, and I don't believe that's the way that the world does thrive. So it's kind of anti nature also.

Amelia HrubyYeah. I feel like in some of the ways we've talked about this, it can sound kind of you know, I'm talking about Lord of the Rings. It sounds fantastical. Or it sounds like, not impractical, but, like, high level or something. And I just wanna be clear that, like, this stuff is so practical.

Amelia HrubyRight? Do you send a weekly newsletter? Could you add a section that promotes somebody else's something every week? It's like, do you have a podcast? Could you do a shout out to another show at the top of every episode?

Amelia HrubyDo you have a website? Could you add a page where you link all your collaborators of people you admire? Do you put flyers out in the world? Could you also carry flyers for friends with you and put up three everywhere you normally put up one of yours? The purpose of having these values isn't just to be like, I have these values.

Amelia HrubyIt's to actually do these practical actions that stem from the values. And to me, that also gets back to the sort of conversation around branding. Right? Like, it's sort of easy to, like, build a brand on nothing. Right?

Amelia HrubyTo, like, make it look pretty. A brand can be a performance that actually is not rooted in any practical action or impact in the world. And I think that is the danger of branding. And I think that is also why we have so many issues with trust in online business, because so many people out there have, like, brilliant, beautiful brands who are frankly, like, barely even brand new to the work, or they've been doing it for a long time, but they still, like, don't have relationships, don't have results, don't have all these things that, like, I look to. And that's not to say that you can't be brand new with a beautiful brand.

Amelia HrubyOf course, you can. Like, I support that. But I also think being really clear about, like, how are you putting into practice what you stand for? How does your, you know, the philosophy of me is, like, how is your praxis as strong as your theory? I think is is really important here because I'm sure, like, I mean, nothing bothers me more, and I'm sure you'll relate to this, than the sort of, like, greenwashing or pinkwashing or aligned values washing of some just, like, manipulative traditional online business junk.

Natalie BriteYep. It drives me bonkers, honestly. And I love what you just shared of, like, it really isn't a high lift like we think it's gonna be to implement these methods and approaches to business. To me, it's almost like a homecoming in a lot of ways of, like, remembering who we are and why we're here. And we're not here just to be these, like, little business operators that, you know, crunch numbers and post on social media all day.

Natalie BriteIt's like, is that really the purpose? No. I don't think so. And I think that's a large part why I always come back to nature as a as a guide and a a mentor is because we often forget that we're a part of it all. We're not the part.

Natalie BriteWe're not the only thing that exists. And when we remember that, you can lean back a little bit and be supported more. Right? There's so much support around us, but we have to also remember, like, that is a reciprocal exchange. We support.

Natalie BriteWe are supported. And building that exchange is not that difficult because it's actually just part of how we are and who we are.

Amelia HrubyIt's actually way more work to have a perfectly green grass lawn year round than it is to just let native plants grow. And if you have been growing a perfectly green lawn year round, AKA performing a brand on social media, it's really hard at first to get the native plants to come back. Right? Like, they don't wanna grow on soil that has just been, like, sprayed with raid for decades. Like, it's hard.

Amelia HrubyThe same way that it's hard to know what your creative urges and inner impulses are if you have been performing on social media for the past ten years. Like, it's not that you jump from the trying really hard to the ease immediately. Often, we all need a remediation process for the soil and for ourselves as we make these shifts. We have to be gentle with ourselves. We have to pace ourselves.

Amelia HrubyIt takes time. But it is possible, and I'm so with you, Natalie. Like, on the other side of it, this is so much more easeful. Like, what I'm doing now is so much more easeful and supported than anything I was doing when I was, like, literally for me, like, dancing around in my underwear on Instagram, because that's what I used to do. So

Natalie BriteI know I went I don't know. I think it was, like, at the end of last year, I just got this, like, I don't know why it came into my mind, but I got this urge of, like, I'm deleting every single reel I've ever made. And I so I went and just, like, completely deleted all of them and I looked back and I was like, wow. That's really interesting to see where I was and what I thought I had to do versus today where I'm like, I don't even remember the last time I took a photo of myself. Like, I have no idea.

Amelia HrubyI know. It's so so real. As we're recording this, I have just recently returned home from doing a book reading in San Francisco, which is, like, my first book event. It was really exciting. And I got to the end of it and, like, went back to where I was staying that night, and I was like, oh, I don't have a single photo.

Amelia HrubyLike, not nary a one. Because, like, all of my Instagram training is gone. And I was reflecting on how if I had still been, you know, my influencer self that I was five years ago, like, I probably woulda hired a photographer. Like, getting photographs of the event would have been just as important as having the event, being at the event, doing anything there. And I'm really glad that someone did actually snap a picture and I, like, have one image of myself talking about my book.

Amelia HrubyIt just really reflected back to me the complete and total mindset shift and, like, process shift that I've gone through in really leaving and staying off of and, like, fully divorcing myself from social media. And, again, so much more ease. And I felt so much more supported when I wasn't sitting there imagining how I looked the whole time.

Natalie BriteYes. Yes. And how am I coming off and, yeah, just so much insecurity that now it's just kinda, like, dissipated so much.

Amelia HrubyIt was a really, like, feel good experience in my body to go through that and to do all of it without social media. And the only people who saw it were the ones who were there, and I have, like, one picture on my phone. Like, that's that's the whole thing.

Natalie BriteIt makes experiences so much different too when there's not this, like, paper trail, right, of, like, oh, now I have to see myself posted on social media and this like, there's this level of vulnerability and humanness that we can experience in in moments when we're not so captivated by how do I capture this moment? How do I come off in this moment?

Amelia HrubyYeah. And as a participant in spaces too, I feel more relief that I'm not trying to like perform. And when I'm not worried about a screenshot, I don't have to quote, unquote be on brand all the time. And that's a big relief too.

Natalie BriteYeah. 100%. I think that what you just hit there about, like, being on brand and that such a performative experience where it's like, if you're focused on more of this ecosystem approach that we're talking about, there is no I have to be on brand or I am the brand representation because there's so much beyond yourself that the brand is made of. We're just a culmination of all of those things. It's not about just us.

Amelia HrubyI'm curious as we're wrapping up how you see the web of your impact branching out because you write beautiful essays. You give people moments all the time. Can we offer you any kudos for the way that your business is changing the world?

Natalie BriteThank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's it's so wild to watch things because kind of even speaking to what we were just talking about of this, like, performing for the personal brand, the further away from that I get, the more impact I can see happening. I think for me, Substack has been really eye opening, and I know say what you want about Substack.

Natalie BriteThere's plenty to critique there too. But I started Substack, like, kind of on a whim because I've been really, over the last couple years, really putting my writing practice in the foreground. And I really just kinda started it without knowing what to expect or anything, and it has been just absolutely incredible to see the growth of community and relationships there. And just seeing like, oh, wow. Somebody shared this with this person, and now I made this connection here or just the web that happens just through this, like, sharing of work where I have no paywall of any sense on my Substack.

Natalie BriteIt's literally completely free. I make scenes on there that are free. I do we just launched a podcast free. Like, all of it's, you know, completely just a gift. And so to see the way in which that spreads just through gifting out ideas, thoughts, and knowledge is so cool.

Natalie BriteBut outside of that, it's been really neat to see a couple people that I've known for several years and I've worked with in lots of different ways and to see where they're at today, how their ecosystems have expanded. That's, like, wild. It's so wild. It makes me think about this one person that I've been working with for about three and a half years now, and we do full service retainer work for them, marketing management, website and website management, and all the whole shebang. And they're a little bit older than me, about ten years older than me, and I'm 40.

Natalie BriteAnd to see how they're in, like, their prime right now, It's like the coolest thing, and it's so inspiring. And just to see, like, through the support that we've provided, how they've been able to kind of relax within themselves and to have the capacity to support more people. And just that that ripple effect is just wild. It's so wild, and that's where I get really gushy and really geeked out because I'm just like, this is so cool. Like, so, so cool.

Natalie BriteSo that or, like, driving down a street and being like, I designed that design that's up there, you know, window or something like that is always really cool too. Community involvement, I love to see just kind of, like, the impact of that as well. So, yeah, lots of different ways.

Amelia HrubyThis is just really reminding me of just, like, the beauty of having your work reflected back to you and how that doesn't exist in the sort of, like, singular only one brand model where your goal is to, like, dominate the message and be the only voice out there. I mean, I don't think anyone listening to this is really doing that, but we're all familiar with it. And so I just love this ecosystems approach and how, you know, there are so many symbiotic relationships in nature, and we can create symbiosis in our business ecosystems as well. So that feels like such a beautiful note to wrap our conversation on. Natalie, thank you so much for this.

Amelia HrubyIf listeners wanna learn more about you, connect with your work, where can they find you online or in person?

Natalie BriteYeah. So, obviously, I'm in Portland, Oregon. So if there's anybody in the Portland or Oregon vicinity, feel free to reach out because I love going on coffee dates and and just catching up with people in person. And then outside of that website is dogoodbiz.studio. And the only other place I'm really active is Substack, and I do weekly publications on Substack.

Amelia HrubyYeah. And your essays are so amazing. So I do highly recommend that folks subscribe. That'll be linked in the show notes. Thank you so much, Natalie, for this wonderful conversation.

Amelia HrubyI feel so just, like, uplifted and ready to go to work. I gotta, like, build my ecosystem, which is but I'm so grateful for your time here. And listeners, we're so grateful that you're tuned in. We hope that this episode can be inspiration to build in your own ecological models to think about the creative ecosystem of your business and to let go of any strategies or platforms that feel like they're harming you and the planet and the world that you wanna live in. So we'll be back soon.

Amelia HrubyAnd until then, you can find us Off the Grid.

Unknown/Song AudioI kinda hate social media Teeds on my brain like a bacteria. If you're in my Wikipedia, it'll say I kinda hate social media. Post a picture of myself. Sacrifices my mental health. Use your product time to tell.

Unknown/Song AudioI would this? Do you like this? Leave a comment?

Natalie BriteOkay.

Amelia HrubyThat was an abridged version of Social Media by Surfer Boy and Rectangle. To hear the entire song, find Surfer Boy on Spotify or head to the link in the show notes. Thanks so much to them for sharing the song with us, as well as to Melissa Caitlin Carter, who sings our theme song that you hear at the start of every show. I'm your host, Emilia Frooby, and if you enjoyed this episode, I hope you will download the free Leading Social Media Toolkit at offthegrid.funtoolkit. Until next time, I will see you Off the Grid.

Amelia HrubyHi again, Amelia here. Remember me? You just heard my voice and now I'm back. But this time, it's with a very special gift as thanks to you for staying tuned in and being one of our very loyal listeners and fans. Today, I wanna share a few creative resources with you.