Episode 31Sep 23, 2022· 41:10
Replay - Getting Started with Ghostwriting Featuring Robert Yaniz Jr.
About this episode
Getting Started with Ghostwriting Featuring Robert Yaniz Jr.
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Full transcript
00:00
Welcome to the bloggy friends show.
00:16
What's up bloggy friends?
00:17
Famous Ashley Grant here and I'm so excited that this is the very first episode where
00:21
I'm introducing guests.
00:23
And my very first guest is Robert Yannis Jr. and I'm so excited that he's on the show because
00:28
I've been on his podcast, Crooked Table, several times.
00:31
And I think you'll enjoy everything that he's got to share.
00:34
We're talking about how we got started in the world of journalism and how we got started
00:38
as ghost writers.
00:39
So there's a lot to unpack and let's dive in.
00:43
So I am Robert Yannis Jr.
00:45
I am a writer, an editor, a podcaster, extraordinaire.
00:51
I'll put there in quotes because it's mostly just exaggeration and I guess vanity, ego,
00:58
whatever you want to call it.
01:00
But yeah, so I have a bunch of podcasts launching very soon.
01:06
My company is called Crooked Table Productions and we have three shows starting up later
01:10
this year.
01:11
So people can find out more about that at crookedtable.com and on the social medias
01:16
and all that.
01:17
So that's just kind of a general bead on who I am.
01:19
So if there's anything specific you want to know, let me know.
01:23
I love it.
01:24
I love it.
01:25
All right, so let's take it way back to the old school about how you and I know each other.
01:29
And of course, the main reason that I decided that I wanted you to be on the show is, well,
01:35
I mean, come on.
01:36
We've known each other for what?
01:37
Are we pushing two decades yet?
01:39
Are we there yet?
01:40
Yeah, I think so.
01:42
I can't even like, okay, we were 15, 16 years old.
01:45
We were working at AMC.
01:47
Well, I started at AMC and I remember because it was, first of all, as a cinephile, of course,
01:54
my first real job was at a movie theater.
01:56
I'm sorry.
01:57
Wait, hold please.
01:58
Did you just call yourself a cinephile?
01:59
I did.
02:00
That is fantastic.
02:01
I have a movie podcast.
02:02
It's almost 200 episodes.
02:03
Well, no.
02:04
So I mean, clearly.
02:05
No, but in all honesty, I've never heard the word cinephile.
02:09
So just that was fantastic.
02:11
And I'll let you continue on now, sir.
02:12
Thank you.
02:13
I wish I had coined it.
02:15
I wish I had coined it, but no, alas.
02:18
So of course, my first job was at a movie theater at an AMC, which looks like it'll
02:23
be the only movie theater chain remaining after all of this.
02:26
I started there June 20th, 2001.
02:30
So actually 10 days shy of my 18th birthday.
02:34
So I was a late bloomer in multiple regards, but in far as my job is concerned, I was really
02:42
nervous about getting a job early on in life.
02:44
And so I didn't really get one until almost 18 years old, like a real paying job.
02:51
And I remember because Fast and the Furious, the first one, not the six million sequels
02:56
had just come out.
02:57
I started on a Friday and it was a madhouse.
03:01
So it was a really kind of wild way to start my initial foray into the customer service
03:09
world and then everything my career began to evolve into after.
03:14
Yeah.
03:15
See, it's interesting that you remember all those details because I guess I must have
03:20
like memory blocked most of that shit out because I don't even remember when I started.
03:25
I think I was 16.
03:26
I'm not even sure at this point, but it was like my first real job.
03:31
I mean, yeah, I had done like babysitting and I even worked as a party person for a
03:38
gym down in Tampa.
03:41
And then after that, I was just like, okay, well now I want to do something more.
03:46
So I wanted to get a job at AMC because they said that you could watch free movies and
03:50
so I was like, all right, let's do that because that's a good way to the guy I was dating
03:54
at the time.
03:55
I couldn't exactly afford to go on dates.
03:57
And so I was like, well, hey, if I do this, I can get free movie tickets.
04:00
So that's what I did.
04:01
Yeah, nice.
04:02
No, that's the dream.
04:03
Free movies.
04:04
Hell yeah.
04:05
Yeah.
04:06
So yeah, I remember like I remember a lot of crazy nights, but I don't even remember
04:11
any of the movies that were playing while I was working there.
04:13
Like I don't remember any of them.
04:15
I remember the one that was playing whenever I met my husband, but I don't remember anything
04:22
else.
04:23
Wait, which one was it?
04:24
Okay.
04:25
You're going to laugh.
04:27
The very first movie he and I ever watched together was called Deliver Us From Eva with
04:31
Gabrielle Union.
04:32
I remember the poster.
04:33
Yes.
04:34
Of Deliver Us From Eva.
04:35
Yeah, I can picture.
04:36
Yeah.
04:37
I forget who the, was it like, wasn't Nick Cannon?
04:39
Wasn't it LL Cool J?
04:40
Someone like that.
04:41
It might've been LL Cool J. Yeah.
04:43
I can't remember, but I just remember like she was, she was the bad girl and everybody
04:48
hated her and we were trying to, they were trying to deliver themselves from Eva.
04:53
It wasn't really, you looked it up.
04:55
Yeah.
04:56
That's awesome.
04:57
Yeah.
04:58
It was LL Cool J. 2003.
04:59
Those lips.
05:00
Maybe that's why I remembered.
05:04
That he can never stop licking.
05:05
He's like, it's like the thing.
05:06
If you see on the internet, like people like to point out that every video or movie is
05:09
just like constantly.
05:12
It's like those memes of the rock.
05:14
Every single photo of Dwayne Johnson is him buttoning his, what do you call those?
05:20
Oh my God.
05:21
I'm completely brain farting right now.
05:24
Cuff links.
05:25
He's forever, he's forever buttoning his cuff links.
05:28
And so there's that meme that's going around of will he ever finish buttoning his shirt?
05:33
Probably not.
05:34
Probably not.
05:35
Probably not.
05:36
He keeps not fitting in his shirts.
05:37
That's the problem.
05:38
Cause he's so big.
05:39
Yeah.
05:40
He's so big.
05:41
That's what she said.
05:42
Anywho.
05:43
So, so yeah, you and I have known each other for a long time then since the AMC days and
05:48
God, we have, we've stayed in touch.
05:51
Like who knew in college we were both working for the Oracle and for anybody who is not
05:56
from the South Florida area.
05:58
Well, even though it's not technically South Florida, it's more like mid Florida as we
06:02
were discussing before we hit the record button.
06:05
But but yeah, we were both working for the Oracle at the university of South Florida,
06:09
which was their school newspaper.
06:12
And I was working for like the entertainment.
06:14
Were you working for entertainment as well?
06:16
I was.
06:17
Yeah.
06:18
I was working.
06:19
The entertainment section was called montage.
06:20
Yes.
06:21
Entertainment and lifestyle.
06:23
And yeah.
06:24
And the funny thing is that I think I wrote for them a little bit in like 2003, 2004.
06:30
And then I started writing for them after I was done with my bachelor's before I really
06:35
started my master.
06:36
So I technically wasn't a student for part of that time.
06:41
And and I was actually section editor for like, I think the summer of 2007.
06:46
So we're now to any young people listening to this.
06:48
They're just like, damn, these people old.
06:50
It's like, yeah, yeah.
06:52
Remember newspapers?
06:53
Remember movie theaters?
06:54
What are those?
06:55
Like, I don't understand these people.
06:57
I can't relate.
06:59
I get my news on TikTok and I and I stream stuff on Netflix.
07:03
Who are these people?
07:04
But yeah.
07:05
I'm not saying that's the news.
07:06
Yeah.
07:07
Yeah.
07:08
That's hilarious.
07:09
My my very first story I ever wrote in the Oracle was a Valentine's Day story and it
07:15
was about how to go out on a date cheap.
07:19
Yeah, that's that's a theme you had already laid the groundwork.
07:23
You're like, number one, get a job at AMC.
07:26
Yeah.
07:27
Yeah.
07:28
I didn't even do it on purpose.
07:29
It's just how I rolled.
07:30
Yeah.
07:31
You know, I'm into that frugal living.
07:32
I'm into that get rich or die trying.
07:34
You know what I'm saying?
07:36
Yeah.
07:37
But yeah, got it.
07:38
Yes, exactly.
07:39
That that very first article was like it was all these tips for how to do Valentine's Day
07:45
inexpensively.
07:46
And it was things like go for lunch instead of go for dinner, order water instead of order
07:50
soda.
07:51
And I'm looking back, I'm like, oh, Jesus Christ, order the wine.
07:54
But anyways, but yeah, so we were both working for for the Oracle together.
08:01
And I don't even think we hardly like saw each other during college.
08:06
But then, you know, we bumped into each other quite a few times.
08:10
And then I started working for a magazine.
08:13
And you weren't working for Dundee at that time.
08:16
I was.
08:17
Yeah, I worked for them from like 2004 to like 2008 ish.
08:22
I think something like that.
08:23
Now publications was that the was that the like local what would you call it?
08:28
What would you call them?
08:29
It was yeah, it was a series of local papers and they were each they were like, I think,
08:33
five or six different ones that were all branded to specific communities in Tampa Bay.
08:39
So there's like a Lutz one and like a new Tampa one.
08:42
And so the advertisers in each of those were specified to those, you know, those neighborhoods.
08:49
And I believe when you advertise with them, at least the first time or I forget how it
08:55
worked out because that wasn't my part of it, you got like an advertorial that went
08:59
along with it.
09:00
And that was my role.
09:01
So I was writing the advertorials and going based on the ad and a brief call with the
09:08
with the company or their website, just kind of writing those things up.
09:12
And I believe at a certain point, because I was also this is this the mid 2000s, I was
09:18
really kind of all over the place because I was doing Oracle stuff and I was doing done
09:25
deal stuff and I was working I actually worked for a few months at the USF Foundation and
09:29
like an office job, like doing you know, kind of clerical not clerical work, but just kind
09:35
of like updating the database, I think for the membership cards for the donors to USF.
09:40
Oh, wow.
09:41
So yeah, so I was doing like three or four different sort of part time freelancing jobs
09:46
at the same time.
09:47
And then after I left that I did some freelance for the Maddox business report, which is also
09:52
now gone.
09:54
And once I joined Tampa Bay Business Journal, it kind of got to a point where I had to start
09:58
taking my name off of the taking the bylines off of the done deal work because I was initially
10:03
getting bylines just because it was you know, it could look like a conflict of interest,
10:08
that kind of thing.
10:10
And so I guess you can kind of say done deal was sort of my first my first ghost writing
10:15
experience at a certain point.
10:16
It kind of evolved into that just because I was working a you know, what started as
10:22
an unpaid internship and turned into a full my first full time role at the Tampa Bay Business
10:28
Journal just because you know, those two things sort of overlapped done deal sort of turned
10:33
into a ghost writing job.
10:35
That's crazy.
10:36
That's wild.
10:37
Yeah.
10:38
And my very first article that was in the Oracle was in 2007.
10:41
And I remember that because I hadn't quite admitted that I wanted to be in the world
10:47
of journalism yet.
10:48
I was still in in like 2005 2006, I was still actually on track to be a social studies high
10:55
school teacher.
10:56
And I remember when I met my husband, I finally was just like, I don't want to do this, like
11:01
I was substitute teaching.
11:03
And I realized as I was like meeting other educators and learning a lot about the industry
11:08
that I didn't want to do it.
11:10
And about that time, you know, I'm preparing for my wedding and, and because I that wasn't
11:16
enough of a change that was going on in my life, my one of my electives that I had to
11:21
take was intro to art history or something like that.
11:24
And the professor pulled me into her office hours.
11:27
And she said, you know, I had this dream that you were a reporter.
11:32
And she's like, and you still need another elective to graduate.
11:34
She goes, and I really think that your next elective should be intro to mass communications.
11:40
And I was like, mass communications, what the hell is that?
11:42
Like I had no idea.
11:44
And I was like, you know what, why not?
11:46
I'll take that as my next elective.
11:48
And I took intro to mass communications with Dr. Rick Wilbur and it changed my life.
11:53
I changed my major and decided I was going to be a journalist.
11:56
I wanted to be in magazines.
11:59
And next thing I knew, I had a new last name and I had a byline.
12:04
And I was like, you know, my very first article was with my new married name.
12:09
And so, yeah, everything I've ever written has been under Ashley Grant until I started
12:13
ghost writing, which is, which is kind of crazy looking back and thinking about all
12:16
that.
12:17
But, but it's funny.
12:18
You mentioned that you had to take your name off of the byline whenever you started working
12:22
with Tampa Bay business journal, because when I started taking my name off the byline is
12:28
when I finally started making better money.
12:31
And so, you know, I was in the game, the freelance game for like from 2007 to about 2014.
12:38
And for some reason, like 2014, January 2014 is when ghost writing landed in my lap.
12:43
Like I wasn't looking for it at all.
12:46
And I got a call from someone asking if I would write their blog post for them because
12:50
blogging was becoming a big thing for every business.
12:54
And they basically like, you know, handed me this offer and I took it because I needed
12:59
the work.
13:00
And, you know, that was the beginning of, I guess I should say the end, the end of Ashley
13:06
Grant because everything was becoming all ghost written at that point.
13:10
And yeah, just, it's kind of crazy how like I was, I was on track to be a social studies
13:16
teacher and a few blinks later and I'm a writer.
13:20
Yeah.
13:21
Isn't it crazy how that happens?
13:22
I, when I started at USF because I had been kind of, I guess, coaxed by my parents to,
13:29
to be a doctor, I was actually started at USF with pre-med.
13:33
So for a year and a half I was, I was actually studying, taking chemistry classes and biology
13:38
classes and, and sort of struggling to keep up with it, struggling to, to maintain decent
13:44
grades.
13:45
And it just reached a point I was like, this is too hard.
13:47
Like this doesn't feel like it's for me.
13:50
It's like, if I was really that driven to do this, this wouldn't feel like such hard
13:55
work.
13:56
It's like, it's, it was, it was, it was an uphill battle basically.
13:59
And so I, I kind of took a step back and realized, you know, what, what, looking back, kind of
14:04
reflecting on my time in school up to that point, like, what did I excel at?
14:09
What did I enjoy?
14:10
And then I would, you know, I kind of had flashes of like, you know, uh, diagramming
14:13
sentences and be like, oh yeah, I remember that was really fun.
14:16
And like writing essays and things like that and how that was always the sort of stuff
14:20
I was just naturally drawn to.
14:22
Uh, and, and then I just shifted into English with, uh, with a focus on technical writing.
14:30
And uh, and then I just, it just, everything just kind of clicked and fell into place.
14:34
It's it's, you know, when you're, when you're trying something on and you're like, I don't
14:37
know, it doesn't fit.
14:38
It's kind of writing up here and like, this doesn't, it's too tight on the shoulders or
14:41
whatever.
14:42
And then you find just the right thing.
14:43
Oh yeah, there we go.
14:44
That's why, why was it, where was this, where was the size before when I was looking for
14:48
it, you know?
14:49
And so it just, it just, everything kind of fell into place from there.
14:53
And I reached out to the Oracle and then Dundeele, you know, I Dundeele happened.
14:56
I graduated with my bachelor's, uh, because of the pre-med thing, I, I was a semester
15:01
late so I graduated with my bachelor's in English in December, 2005.
15:08
So all of this stuff was generally like all of the job stuff I just told you, that was
15:12
all like 2004 to 2007 in the midst of all that.
15:16
And then I, you know, I proceeded into my master's and then kind of stopped doing that
15:21
halfway through just because I was so busy with everything else and, and never, never
15:26
completed it.
15:27
So I'm, I'm not a, I'm not technically a master.
15:29
I'm a mass because I never, I didn't work hard enough to get the tur.
15:33
So that's fantastic.
15:36
Yeah.
15:37
I, uh, I was, um, I started college myself in 2002 and then around 2006, like I said,
15:42
was, was when I was like having my crisis of conscience of, you know, why does, why
15:47
does everything feel so hard?
15:49
And it was like, okay, I can either go ahead and graduate or I can get married.
15:53
And so I got married and then I changed my major.
15:57
And so, yeah, I definitely feel you on, you know, things, things not feeling right.
16:01
And, um, and writing just, it felt so easy.
16:04
It felt like what I was supposed to be doing.
16:07
And, um, my, you know, in 2007 is also when I had my first article come out in the TBT.
16:13
I, um, I was taking, oh goodness, I can't remember what I was taking some class where
16:19
basically the professor was like, if you reach out to a couple of publications and you can
16:23
get your, your, an article published, then we'll give you extra credit.
16:27
And so, you know, I basically started pounding pavement, like trying to get people to publish
16:32
me.
16:33
And I called the TBT, I called Jay Cridlin.
16:35
He was the editor at the time and I called him and I was like, you know, I have, I have
16:40
a story I want to pitch you because I need this for, for, you know, uh, I need to do
16:45
this for school.
16:46
And if I do this for school, then I can get a good grade.
16:49
And so I'm, I'm counting on you, man, you know, and basically he was like, okay, I'll
16:52
let you do a story if you'll just quit calling me.
16:56
And uh, and so my first story that was in the TBT was, um, it was an article about Tijuana
17:03
flats and why their ceiling tiles are all different, like paintings and different colors
17:08
and things like that.
17:10
And um, basically it all started with the owner's son.
17:13
He ran across a tile with paint on his shoes and the owner at the time could not afford
17:18
to buy more ceiling tiles.
17:20
And so he's like, you know what?
17:21
Screw it.
17:22
I'm just going to put it up on the ceiling.
17:24
And that's what started, um, all the ceiling tiles being painted differently is this little,
17:29
little kid running across the tile with, with paint on his shoes.
17:33
And I was like, yeah.
17:34
And I was like, that is the neatest thing, like getting to learn the background stories
17:37
of stuff.
17:38
And so I was like, that's what I have to do.
17:39
I have to be the person that goes and finds out people's stories and then tells them.
17:44
And uh, that's actually what led to you and I working together again is I was, I was working
17:49
for style magazine.
17:50
Um, well, it was called style magazine.
17:52
It was, uh, it was kind of like done deal in the sense that, um, it was local newspapers,
17:57
but instead it was magazines.
17:58
It was a glossy and, uh, it's like those little, um, mags that you would get in your, in your,
18:05
your mailbox that had, you know, some flyers and things like that, but it would also have
18:08
advertorials as well.
18:10
And, um, that led to me working for another magazine that was in Tampa.
18:15
And that's when I was in a position where I was able to hire freelance writers.
18:20
And I, I remember somehow you and I bumped into each other again and I was like, Hey,
18:24
you know, I got a freelance gig if you want it.
18:27
And I don't know if you remember all that, but it was just, uh, you know, it was kind
18:30
of a wild time where we were writing for the same magazines.
18:34
And, and, uh, and the next thing we knew we were doing some ghost writing and I was introduced
18:40
to a client who needed more, more ghost writers and called you.
18:45
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's kind of crazy how our teenagers are always called the coming of
18:52
age years, but I really feel like it's like the mid twenties where you kind of figure
18:57
out what the hell you're doing on this planet.
18:59
Cause I've, all of this is like, yeah, I was born in 1983.
19:03
So I was like, uh, mid early to mid twenties during all of this that we're talking about.
19:08
And it's, it's, that's still kind of, you know, led me to what I'm doing now.
19:14
And, and it's, you know, you start to really kind of firm up what your career direction
19:19
is going to be.
19:20
Like around that time and, uh, and yeah, that it's weird how we've just kind of keep circling
19:27
each other as coworkers or collaborators, just like every few years.
19:30
It's like, oh yeah, Hey, well, here's this, let's, let's work together.
19:34
And, you know, I really owe you, oh, you a great, you know, great debt of gratitude for,
19:39
for all of that, because especially with the, uh, you know, especially with the client doing
19:43
the ghost writing that you just mentioned, just like I had quit my, my, uh, my job, my
19:50
full-time job here working downtown in Tampa, because it was just becoming a toxic work
19:55
environment.
19:56
And I had some savings from that.
19:58
And so I was just like, I've going to just, I have, I was writing for screen rants at
20:01
the time.
20:02
That was the only client that I had and they do not spoilers.
20:06
The pay is not something you can live off of.
20:08
Right.
20:09
Um, and I was just like, you know what?
20:11
I'll work on that.
20:12
I'll, I'll, you know, rely on my savings while I get other things going.
20:17
And there were a few that I, that I was able to kind of cultivate over time, but the one
20:22
that you brought me to was actually one of my first.
20:25
And if I'm like one of my last two, because I was freelance from 2015 until technically
20:33
mid 2020.
20:34
Uh, and it was, it was really kind of a major through line.
20:39
And I, and I really, you know, I owe you a lot of thanks for, for kind of making that
20:43
connection and recommending me when I was kind of brand new to being a full-time freelance
20:49
writer.
20:50
So, you know, that's it's a credit, I think, to how important networking is really in any
20:56
job in any profession.
20:57
But I feel like, especially in, in creative work, whether that's writing or photography
21:03
or podcasting or, or filmmaking or whatever it may be, I feel like if you don't have other
21:09
people to kind of give you that boost, people who are a step either, either way ahead of
21:15
you, but you know, more lie more than likely just like a step or two above, um, ahead of
21:20
you and where you want to be.
21:22
It's, it, it's makes it kind of difficult to impossible to, to get anywhere in it.
21:27
And I, you know, I've seen that with my podcasting as well, that it's, as you know, it's, it's
21:33
everyone in the world.
21:34
We're not, we do not, we do not live in a world that is friendly to creative types generally
21:39
until you prove yourself, you know, and, and they don't want to give you the opportunities
21:45
to prove yourself unless you have an in with someone to kind of open the door, crack the
21:51
door open for you and, and invite you inside and be like, Hey, check out this person.
21:55
He's cool.
21:56
He's with me.
21:57
You know, it's like, it's like a, it's kind of like a nightclub.
21:59
Yeah.
22:00
I have to get, I need someone to help you get through the velvet rope or even like a,
22:05
what is it?
22:06
A Kate Hudson in the almost famous.
22:08
Yeah, I can't I'm with the band.
22:11
I'm with the band.
22:12
Yeah.
22:13
Yeah.
22:14
I'm a bandaid.
22:15
That's fantastic.
22:16
Yeah, exactly.
22:17
Exactly.
22:18
And, and I think, you know, that's so important in any kind of creating creative thing, but
22:23
specifically to writing it's people want to get, they want you to work for experience.
22:30
I mean, this is something, you know, even better than me, actually.
22:32
Oh yeah.
22:33
What is it?
22:34
I'll pay you in pie paid in experience.
22:37
It's like, take your pie and shove it up your ass.
22:39
Yeah.
22:40
It's exposure.
22:41
You'll get, you know, and they, and a lot of times they'll, they'll offer you a byline
22:45
in lieu of pay.
22:46
It's like, no, no, I need the, you can, that's kind of the, I think the funny part about
22:51
ghost writing.
22:52
It's like, no, no, you can keep the byline.
22:54
Give me the pay.
22:55
Yeah.
22:56
It's so funny.
22:57
It's so funny you say that because for a while, whenever I was telling people I was a ghost
23:02
writer, I said, well, you get the credit, but I'll take the cash.
23:05
Right.
23:06
Exactly.
23:07
Exactly.
23:08
I love that.
23:09
So, you know, it's all about relationships.
23:11
I mean, at the end of the day, it sounds like everything related to what we do, it's all
23:15
about relationships.
23:16
And I think that's one of the reasons that I I've, I've truly been so grateful for the
23:21
people that have been in my, my circle.
23:25
And so, you know, since we're talking about ghost writing and all that good stuff.
23:30
I'm curious as to what your thoughts on this.
23:31
I know that now you are getting a byline again, and I am too, and in a lot of ways.
23:35
Um, cause I am still doing stuff for people that are willing to give me the credit, but so.
23:41
If you were to start doing this again, why ghost writing?
23:46
I feel like there's a, there's a lower barrier to entry, I think because,
23:52
because you're not, because you're not getting that byline in a way, because someone else is taking credit.
23:58
It's like, you have to, I think early on sometimes swallow your pride in order to get, get your foot in.
24:05
Because when I went freelance initially and you were doing ghost writing, I think I even said to my, my wife.
24:11
I was like, I don't know if I want to do ghost writing because I like having my name on stuff.
24:14
Oh, me too.
24:15
And then it sort of got to the point where I was like, okay, this is hard.
24:18
Maybe let's, let's give that ghost writing a second look.
24:21
Um, and I, and I think that, you know, ghost writing could be a good way to get your foot in the door.
24:28
And there are other, I mean, we live in a, the age of the internet, which, you know, you, you and I didn't necessarily grow up with.
24:36
It's, we live in an age where now you can literally write anything, put your name on it, maybe get canceled if you say the wrong thing.
24:43
But, but put out a blog, a podcast, a short film, whatever you can put out anything now.
24:50
And claim credit. So I think it's worthwhile early on, if you're looking to be a writer to use ghost writing to get some experience, to get to that point where you can demand a baseline.
25:03
And where you, where you have that option, if you so choose.
25:06
And I think that that's really kind of the, you know, it's easy to get stuck on.
25:11
Well, no, I'm not going to write something unless I can take credit for it.
25:14
But there's so many more opportunities out there that you would immediately kind of discounting by doing that.
25:21
And it doesn't mean that it has, it doesn't mean that it has to be a forever thing.
25:25
If it's really something that you don't necessarily feel like you want to stick with, or you're able to find work in other avenues, that's great.
25:32
But it's, if you're starting out, I think it's, it's important to kind of keep that option open just because people, people will be willing to, to give you the opportunity.
25:44
And then you can start to do more work and let you kind of prove yourself because they're not risking their reputation by putting your name out there.
25:53
I agree. I agree with everything you just said.
25:57
Yeah. It's like, it's like, if you're recommending, you're not going to recommend someone, like if you're working at a company and a position opens up,
26:04
you're not going to refer someone that you don't, that you wouldn't stand up for, that you're not, that that's not going to, that's going to botch the first interview.
26:12
Right. It's like a被z, it wouldn't be really assertive to anyone at aanska needsn't even be putting a label their name on.
26:18
Just to keep yourself told, why would you move a label onto a company after all this time?
26:22
So if it wasn't for value and spring in the caused by actions, can I stay, can I hire them and not put66 an effort into it?
26:33
Do I have authority to do that?
26:34
That's so right, but I have to put my money into, in my account.
26:37
So at some point now we've got an asks on the line
26:39
I am.
26:40
How do you use that?
26:41
I don't know what.
26:42
I don't know what to do.
26:43
No, no, it's okay. It's totally cool.
26:46
I love everything that you're saying.
26:47
And it's interesting because, you know,
26:48
whenever I first started writing and I was getting a byline.
26:51
You know,
26:53
It's like all of a sudden freelancers are always the first to go
26:55
whenever.
26:56
You know, add revenue dries up that we're always the first to go.
27:06
And so when I was working for different publications,
27:08
I was working for, um, for Metro mix, um, which was an affiliate of the channel 10, uh,
27:13
station in Tampa at the time.
27:15
And there was a guy who, who called me famous Ashley grant, and it became a thing for a
27:21
while. And it was funny because there was a girl in Sarasota writing for SRQ magazine
27:26
and her name was also Ashley grant and people used to call me looking for her.
27:30
And so they'd be like, Hey, are you the Ashley that works for Sarasota magazine?
27:33
And I'm like, no, I'm the famous one.
27:34
And so, you know, I definitely feel you on wanting the byline and wanting to be able
27:39
to tell people like, Hey, I wrote that.
27:41
But at the same time, you know, whenever, when ghost writing landed in my lab, I was
27:46
like, I was so excited that I was able to finally start making some money.
27:49
And what's great about ghost writing is that it gives you the opportunity to kind of
27:54
not just get your own, you know, footing of understanding how to write articles, but
27:59
also to figure out what the hell you like writing about. Like I can tell you right now
28:04
that if I were to start a website today, I can, I can name at least 20 different niches
28:08
that I have no interest in writing anymore.
28:10
And so I think that if someone's trying to get into the writing field, it's a great way
28:15
to, to kind of get into the industry and figure out like, Hey, do I even enjoy this?
28:20
Like, let's say, you know, one of the, one of the people that I wrote for a long time
28:23
ago was a footnote writer.
28:24
And I had to write a whole bunch of articles about foot fungus. Can I just tell you, it's
28:29
the nastiest stuff I've ever had to write.
28:30
And it basically told me I never want to write about foot fungus ever again.
28:34
But at the same time, I learned a lot about, you know, how to craft an article that can
28:41
actually sell services.
28:43
And so now you go back into a new niche and you see, you know, what's the best way to
28:48
write about foot fungus?
28:49
What is best about it when you can see as a main campus project, you've seen it in concrete
28:55
numbers, because of like, large spots where people can just write about it, you know,
29:00
it's obvious they may not even use it that many hours a week.
29:02
You see how you learn about people's Bucket Parts.
29:04
Who do they are?
29:05
Who's involved with work?
29:06
What are their services.
29:07
And so now you go back into a new niche and you see, you know how you feel about it.
29:11
And you might find that you do enjoy writing about something else.
29:15
And so I think that if someone's trying to break into the writing field,
29:18
for whatever advertisers they happen to have.
29:22
So I was writing about, you know, a store that, you know,
29:26
a doctor's office, a store, this, this like car repair place
29:30
or like whatever, like different things.
29:32
And it gives you the ability to sort of develop that,
29:36
that, that, that,
29:40
I'm trying to avoid using the word ability again,
29:43
to develop that versatility,
29:45
to kind of develop your own style and fine tune it to
29:51
whatever the topic may be.
29:52
And that's something, you know,
29:53
you learn as an English major, obviously too, but, you know,
29:56
to your point, you sort of able to gain authority in a way
30:01
without really, without really having any upfront,
30:04
is that, you know, you know what I mean?
30:06
Like when you come on for ghost writing,
30:08
they'll bring you on to write about something
30:10
that you've never heard of.
30:11
You learn about it in like, in, on your own, independently,
30:15
you find out who the client is, you learn about the topic,
30:17
you become sort of an armchair expert at it.
30:20
And then you're able to put something together.
30:23
And because in a way, because you don't have your name on it,
30:26
it, the, the, the piece comes across that much stronger
30:30
because you're not being like, hi, I'm this person.
30:32
I don't know about this, but here it is.
30:34
You know what I mean?
30:35
So you're leaning on, on the, the client's expertise
30:39
and you're sort of have to kind of envelop yourself in that
30:44
and then be able to, it's like learning a language.
30:47
Right. You know, you go to a, you,
30:48
you want to learn a language, you go to a country,
30:51
you, you immerse yourself in it.
30:53
And then you're like, Ooh, I get it now.
30:54
I know how to speak.
30:56
I could speak like, like, like the locals.
30:58
Yeah. And then, you know, you now,
30:59
at least add that to your skillset.
31:01
Yeah, exactly.
31:02
Yeah. Like, I mean, I, I've never tiled anything in my life,
31:06
but I wrote 20 articles on how to tile a bathroom.
31:08
So, so I definitely understand what you mean.
31:11
You know, you, you, you get the opportunity to,
31:15
to really flex your creative muscles and,
31:17
and see how you can look at something from different angles.
31:21
And I think that it's a great way for, for people to,
31:25
to get into the writing world.
31:26
And so since we're talking about all this,
31:29
I'm kind of curious if you were to start today,
31:32
how would you go about being a ghostwriter?
31:35
I would probably tap into my network, honestly.
31:38
I'd probably hit you up, Ashley and be like, Hey, who do I,
31:40
who's the one who needs work?
31:42
I mean, I think that's, that's really the most important thing.
31:45
So for people that don't know,
31:47
that don't have close friends of two decades,
31:51
who have connections in the ghostwriting world, you know,
31:55
join Facebook groups, follow people on Twitter,
31:58
like go to job boards and see, you know,
32:01
and see postings for ghostwriters, for freelance writers,
32:04
for whatever it may, whatever your, your expertise
32:07
or your area of, that you're trying to get in.
32:11
I think that's, that's really what it is.
32:13
It's, it's, if you're not connected to people
32:16
that can give you, you know, give you a leg up,
32:19
get connected to those people.
32:21
It's the first thing.
32:22
I mean, you know, I think that goes for any,
32:24
like I was saying, I think that goes for any creative thing,
32:26
but for ghostwriting, that's what I would recommend for sure.
32:28
And if I were to do that now, it would be a lot harder
32:31
because now I'm married with, with the child.
32:33
So it's like, I don't know if I have as much ability
32:37
to do that hustle, but that's,
32:40
I think that's really where it has to start.
32:42
You know, it's interesting you mentioned, you know,
32:44
getting on Facebook groups and things like that,
32:46
because that's actually one of the places I've seen
32:48
a lot of people looking for ghostwriting leads.
32:52
And in fact, I should put that in the show notes.
32:54
There, there are four groups that I'm in
32:56
where they're constantly posting opportunities
32:59
for ghostwriting.
33:00
So I'm definitely gonna add that to the show notes
33:02
for this episode.
33:03
And, you know, the other thing is people say
33:07
so many different things, like there are advocates for it
33:09
and there are people against it,
33:11
but sites like Upwork and Fiverr,
33:13
like even though you have a low barrier to entry
33:17
and you're gonna get some really crappy income
33:19
in the beginning, I've actually had one of my longest
33:22
standing clients on Upwork.
33:23
And I actually get a byline with them.
33:26
And so it's all about like looking at things
33:30
that you have available to you
33:31
and seeing how you can work them
33:33
into what you're trying to do.
33:35
So I love the idea of starting with your current network,
33:40
but don't be afraid to reach out to other people as well.
33:42
Like even if it's a cold pitch,
33:45
you never know who's gonna give you a yes.
33:47
And I've even had people reach out to me on LinkedIn
33:50
who, you know, it's their very first time trying to break
33:53
into the ghostwriting world.
33:54
And so they'll ask me like, hey, how did you get started?
33:57
How can I get started?
33:58
And some of them I've actually sent some leads.
34:00
So you never know, it's all like we said earlier,
34:03
it's all about relationships.
34:05
And if you can just open yourself up to the idea,
34:09
who knows what could follow?
34:12
Yeah, and I think that that's identifying
34:15
those opportunities is so important.
34:16
Like every position I've had, every job I've had,
34:21
like most of my opportunities have come from me
34:23
just throwing it out there.
34:24
And I mean, you know, I'm an introvert,
34:26
so it's hard for me to throw myself out there,
34:28
but these fundamental moves professionally that I've made,
34:32
I started, I was at the business journal
34:34
as an unpaid editorial intern for like six months.
34:38
And the reason I got the editorial assistant job
34:41
is because I was there when the person
34:44
that was in that role was let go.
34:46
And I literally went into the editor's office,
34:47
I'm like, hey, I heard this job is open.
34:49
Would you consider me for it?
34:50
And that's how I got that job.
34:52
And I was there for, you know, two and a half years.
34:55
And my first entertainment writing job
34:59
was for Screen Rant, as I mentioned.
35:01
How did I get that?
35:02
Because the person that used to own the site
35:05
was running the Screen Rant Twitter account at the time.
35:07
This is 2012.
35:09
And I just tweeted out like,
35:10
man, I really enjoy the work on Screen Rant.
35:13
I wish I could write for a site like them.
35:15
And he said, send me a DM, let's talk about it.
35:18
And that's how I ended up writing for Screen Rant.
35:20
So it's really, yeah, don't be afraid to reach out
35:23
to people that are in positions
35:27
that could give you an opportunity,
35:29
just because you're like, oh, well, you know,
35:30
they're probably too busy because you never know.
35:32
So always throw it out there.
35:34
I think it's, Kevin Smith is a podcaster
35:37
that I really enjoy and who was really, you know,
35:39
kind of influenced me to really get into podcasting as well.
35:42
And he quotes, I think Wayne Gretzky or whoever it is,
35:44
it says, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
35:48
And I'm not really even a hockey fan.
35:50
But the fact that it's so true,
35:53
you can apply that to anything.
35:55
You know, you never know what's gonna happen
35:57
unless you give it a shot.
35:59
So I think that applies to ghost writing
36:01
as much as anything else.
36:03
Well, I know that you're doing a lot of stuff now
36:05
with an actual byline,
36:06
but are you still doing any ghost writing
36:08
or are you still pursuing it at all?
36:10
I am not actually.
36:11
I have had an opportunities for that,
36:15
but it's just right now, as I said,
36:17
with the wife and daughter, they're a big focus,
36:21
as well as, you know, my full-time job,
36:23
I work for a site called Showbiz Cheat Sheet.
36:27
So that's cheatsheet.com and you can find my work there,
36:30
as well as all the podcasting stuff.
36:31
So I was like, I have so much going on
36:34
with Cork At Table Productions that I'm planning
36:36
like on the DL for later this year,
36:39
multiple shows focused on movies,
36:42
because I'm a cinephile, actually, in case you forgot.
36:44
That's fantastic.
36:48
So it's like, you know, having that creative freedom,
36:51
I think it's, on the one hand,
36:53
it's something you have to seek out and try and go after,
36:57
but on the other hand, some of it,
36:58
you can kind of start yourself immediately.
37:00
So I think if people wanna be ghost writers
37:04
or any kind of writers
37:05
and they don't have any clips to show,
37:07
then open a startamedium.com account
37:11
and start writing things.
37:12
And that's sometimes some clients or sites or whatever,
37:17
like all they need are clips to show
37:20
that you know how to string sentences together.
37:22
Exactly.
37:23
And I think, you know, just start writing now.
37:25
Like whatever you have to find a story,
37:27
put it on your medium account
37:29
and start throwing it out on social media
37:31
and you never know what's gonna happen.
37:32
And if nothing else, you've gained that experience,
37:36
which means you went a step closer.
37:37
That's actually one of the pieces of advice I give.
37:39
And I actually have a course called
37:43
Ghostblogging Business in a Weekend.
37:44
It's how to start a ghostblogging business in 48 hours.
37:47
And that's one of the first pieces of advice I give
37:49
is if you don't have a website of your own
37:51
where you can prove that you know how to write,
37:53
at least get yourself an account on medium.com
37:55
or Quora or Reddit or something.
37:58
And just do something where you can put
38:00
some form of writing together
38:02
that you can show a clip to someone,
38:03
to a client who can then see proof that, like you said,
38:07
like you can string sentences together.
38:09
And we were gonna go into a little bit more
38:11
about how to be a ghostwriter,
38:12
but I don't want this to become too long-winded
38:14
of an episode, but I'm kind of curious.
38:17
We've covered a lot, but if you could say anything
38:21
to a new person who wants to be a ghostwriter,
38:24
what would you say?
38:26
I mean, I think we kind of covered it.
38:27
Get started now, basically, is what I would say.
38:29
Like, if you wanna write, trust me, like I said,
38:33
I'm an introvert, I'm a creative person.
38:37
I know that there's nothing, like it's almost,
38:40
you're almost more scared at being good at something
38:42
as you are at failing at it.
38:44
And it's just a matter of putting something down.
38:47
I can't tell you how many times, even now,
38:50
that I get so up in my own head about a creative endeavor
38:54
that I feel I get stuck in place
38:58
and it takes me that much longer
38:59
to just finally get it done.
39:01
So that's what I would say.
39:02
It's like, to quote Larry the Cable Guy, get her done.
39:05
It's just, like we said, get started writing.
39:09
No excuses, just do it, Nike style.
39:13
Okay, well, I'm gonna give you
39:14
a cinephile appreciative moment.
39:16
I'm gonna take you back to old school.
39:18
Jennifer Love Hewitt, and I know what you did last summer.
39:21
What are you waiting for?
39:22
Yeah, exactly.
39:25
What are you waiting for?
39:26
And now we all have to go watch that movie again.
39:31
Well, where can people find you
39:33
on the interwebs, Mr. Yanis?
39:36
So you can find me on Twitter at Robert Yanis Jr.
39:40
R-O-B-E-R-T-Y-A-N-I-Z-J-R.
39:43
You can find out more about my thoughts on movies
39:47
and my podcasts at crookedtable.com
39:50
and on Twitter at crookedtable.
39:53
And is there anything I haven't asked you
39:54
that you really wanna, you just wanna tell the audience?
39:59
The audience of 10 people, including my mother.
40:01
Did I mention that I'm a cinephile?
40:04
We'll just beat that into the ground one more time.
40:06
You need to put that on a bumper sticker.
40:11
Hey, bloggy friends, famous Ashley Grant here.
40:14
Just wanted to thank you so much
40:15
for listening to this episode with Robert Yanis Jr.
40:18
And in our next episode,
40:19
I will be featuring Cathy Dean from Healthy Ambitions.
40:23
I can't wait to have her on,
40:24
and I can't wait to share with you all the stuff
40:26
that she has to share about starting a food blog.
40:29
So stay tuned for the next one,
40:31
and we'll catch you next time.
40:32
And until next time, may your page views be high
40:35
and your bounce rate be low.
40:37
Thanks for listening.
40:38
카메�ame vafto
41:08
you
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