Episode 31Sep 23, 2022· 41:10
Replay - Getting Started with Ghostwriting Featuring Robert Yaniz Jr.
▸ Show notes from the creator
Getting Started with Ghostwriting Featuring Robert Yaniz Jr.
More Show Notes From This Episode:
What’s up my bloggy friends! I'm slowly updating the show notes for this and every episode of The Bloggy Friends Show. My new home base for all things Bloggy Friends can be found here: https://www.famousashleygrant.com/podcast/
Be sure to follow me on social: Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | LinkedIn
About this episode
Getting Started with Ghostwriting Featuring Robert Yaniz Jr.
More Show Notes From This Episode:
What’s up my bloggy friends! I'm slowly updating the show notes for this and every episode of The Bloggy Friends Show. My new home base for all things Bloggy Friends can be found here: https://www.famousashleygrant.com/podcast/
Be sure to follow me on social: Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | LinkedIn
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Full transcript
00:00
Welcome to the bloggy friends show. What's up bloggy friends? Famous Ashley Grant here and I'm so excited that this is the very first episode where I'm introducing guests. And my very first guest is Robert Yannis Jr. and I'm so excited that he's on the show because I've been on his podcast, Crooked Table, several times. And I think you'll enjoy everything that he's got to share. We're talking about how we got started in the world of journalism and how we got started as ghost writers.
00:39
So there's a lot to unpack and let's dive in. So I am Robert Yannis Jr. I am a writer, an editor, a podcaster, extraordinaire. I'll put there in quotes because it's mostly just exaggeration and I guess vanity, ego, whatever you want to call it. But yeah, so I have a bunch of podcasts launching very soon. My company is called Crooked Table Productions and we have three shows starting up later this year. So people can find out more about that at crookedtable.com and on the social medias and all that.
01:17
So that's just kind of a general bead on who I am. So if there's anything specific you want to know, let me know. I love it. I love it. All right, so let's take it way back to the old school about how you and I know each other. And of course, the main reason that I decided that I wanted you to be on the show is, well, I mean, come on. We've known each other for what? Are we pushing two decades yet? Are we there yet? Yeah, I think so.
01:42
I can't even like, okay, we were 15, 16 years old. We were working at AMC. Well, I started at AMC and I remember because it was, first of all, as a cinephile, of course, my first real job was at a movie theater. I'm sorry. Wait, hold please. Did you just call yourself a cinephile? I did. That is fantastic. I have a movie podcast. It's almost 200 episodes. Well, no. So I mean, clearly. No, but in all honesty, I've never heard the word cinephile.
02:09
So just that was fantastic. And I'll let you continue on now, sir. Thank you. I wish I had coined it. I wish I had coined it, but no, alas. So of course, my first job was at a movie theater at an AMC, which looks like it'll be the only movie theater chain remaining after all of this. I started there June 20th, 2001. So actually 10 days shy of my 18th birthday. So I was a late bloomer in multiple regards, but in far as my job is concerned, I was really nervous about getting a job early on in life.
02:44
And so I didn't really get one until almost 18 years old, like a real paying job. And I remember because Fast and the Furious, the first one, not the six million sequels had just come out. I started on a Friday and it was a madhouse. So it was a really kind of wild way to start my initial foray into the customer service world and then everything my career began to evolve into after. Yeah. See, it's interesting that you remember all those details because I guess I must have like memory blocked most of that shit out because I don't even remember when I started.
03:25
I think I was 16. I'm not even sure at this point, but it was like my first real job. I mean, yeah, I had done like babysitting and I even worked as a party person for a gym down in Tampa. And then after that, I was just like, okay, well now I want to do something more. So I wanted to get a job at AMC because they said that you could watch free movies and so I was like, all right, let's do that because that's a good way to the guy I was dating at the time.
03:55
I couldn't exactly afford to go on dates. And so I was like, well, hey, if I do this, I can get free movie tickets. So that's what I did. Yeah, nice. No, that's the dream. Free movies. Hell yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I remember like I remember a lot of crazy nights, but I don't even remember any of the movies that were playing while I was working there. Like I don't remember any of them. I remember the one that was playing whenever I met my husband, but I don't remember anything else.
04:23
Wait, which one was it? Okay. You're going to laugh. The very first movie he and I ever watched together was called Deliver Us From Eva with Gabrielle Union. I remember the poster. Yes. Of Deliver Us From Eva. Yeah, I can picture. Yeah. I forget who the, was it like, wasn't Nick Cannon? Wasn't it LL Cool J? Someone like that. It might've been LL Cool J. Yeah. I can't remember, but I just remember like she was, she was the bad girl and everybody hated her and we were trying to, they were trying to deliver themselves from Eva.
04:53
It wasn't really, you looked it up. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. It was LL Cool J. 2003. Those lips. Maybe that's why I remembered. That he can never stop licking. He's like, it's like the thing. If you see on the internet, like people like to point out that every video or movie is just like constantly. It's like those memes of the rock. Every single photo of Dwayne Johnson is him buttoning his, what do you call those?
05:20
Oh my God. I'm completely brain farting right now. Cuff links. He's forever, he's forever buttoning his cuff links. And so there's that meme that's going around of will he ever finish buttoning his shirt? Probably not. Probably not. Probably not. He keeps not fitting in his shirts. That's the problem. Cause he's so big. Yeah. He's so big. That's what she said. Anywho. So, so yeah, you and I have known each other for a long time then since the AMC days and God, we have, we've stayed in touch.
05:51
Like who knew in college we were both working for the Oracle and for anybody who is not from the South Florida area. Well, even though it's not technically South Florida, it's more like mid Florida as we were discussing before we hit the record button. But but yeah, we were both working for the Oracle at the university of South Florida, which was their school newspaper. And I was working for like the entertainment. Were you working for entertainment as well?
06:16
I was. Yeah. I was working. The entertainment section was called montage. Yes. Entertainment and lifestyle. And yeah. And the funny thing is that I think I wrote for them a little bit in like 2003, 2004. And then I started writing for them after I was done with my bachelor's before I really started my master. So I technically wasn't a student for part of that time. And and I was actually section editor for like, I think the summer of 2007.
06:46
So we're now to any young people listening to this. They're just like, damn, these people old. It's like, yeah, yeah. Remember newspapers? Remember movie theaters? What are those? Like, I don't understand these people. I can't relate. I get my news on TikTok and I and I stream stuff on Netflix. Who are these people? But yeah. I'm not saying that's the news. Yeah. Yeah. That's hilarious. My my very first story I ever wrote in the Oracle was a Valentine's Day story and it was about how to go out on a date cheap.
07:19
Yeah, that's that's a theme you had already laid the groundwork. You're like, number one, get a job at AMC. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even do it on purpose. It's just how I rolled. Yeah. You know, I'm into that frugal living. I'm into that get rich or die trying. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But yeah, got it. Yes, exactly. That that very first article was like it was all these tips for how to do Valentine's Day inexpensively.
07:46
And it was things like go for lunch instead of go for dinner, order water instead of order soda. And I'm looking back, I'm like, oh, Jesus Christ, order the wine. But anyways, but yeah, so we were both working for for the Oracle together. And I don't even think we hardly like saw each other during college. But then, you know, we bumped into each other quite a few times. And then I started working for a magazine. And you weren't working for Dundee at that time.
08:16
I was. Yeah, I worked for them from like 2004 to like 2008 ish. I think something like that. Now publications was that the was that the like local what would you call it? What would you call them? It was yeah, it was a series of local papers and they were each they were like, I think, five or six different ones that were all branded to specific communities in Tampa Bay. So there's like a Lutz one and like a new Tampa one.
08:42
And so the advertisers in each of those were specified to those, you know, those neighborhoods. And I believe when you advertise with them, at least the first time or I forget how it worked out because that wasn't my part of it, you got like an advertorial that went along with it. And that was my role. So I was writing the advertorials and going based on the ad and a brief call with the with the company or their website, just kind of writing those things up.
09:12
And I believe at a certain point, because I was also this is this the mid 2000s, I was really kind of all over the place because I was doing Oracle stuff and I was doing done deal stuff and I was working I actually worked for a few months at the USF Foundation and like an office job, like doing you know, kind of clerical not clerical work, but just kind of like updating the database, I think for the membership cards for the donors to USF.
09:40
Oh, wow. So yeah, so I was doing like three or four different sort of part time freelancing jobs at the same time. And then after I left that I did some freelance for the Maddox business report, which is also now gone. And once I joined Tampa Bay Business Journal, it kind of got to a point where I had to start taking my name off of the taking the bylines off of the done deal work because I was initially getting bylines just because it was you know, it could look like a conflict of interest, that kind of thing.
10:10
And so I guess you can kind of say done deal was sort of my first my first ghost writing experience at a certain point. It kind of evolved into that just because I was working a you know, what started as an unpaid internship and turned into a full my first full time role at the Tampa Bay Business Journal just because you know, those two things sort of overlapped done deal sort of turned into a ghost writing job. That's crazy.
10:36
That's wild. Yeah. And my very first article that was in the Oracle was in 2007. And I remember that because I hadn't quite admitted that I wanted to be in the world of journalism yet. I was still in in like 2005 2006, I was still actually on track to be a social studies high school teacher. And I remember when I met my husband, I finally was just like, I don't want to do this, like I was substitute teaching. And I realized as I was like meeting other educators and learning a lot about the industry that I didn't want to do it.
11:10
And about that time, you know, I'm preparing for my wedding and, and because I that wasn't enough of a change that was going on in my life, my one of my electives that I had to take was intro to art history or something like that. And the professor pulled me into her office hours. And she said, you know, I had this dream that you were a reporter. And she's like, and you still need another elective to graduate. She goes, and I really think that your next elective should be intro to mass communications.
11:40
And I was like, mass communications, what the hell is that? Like I had no idea. And I was like, you know what, why not? I'll take that as my next elective. And I took intro to mass communications with Dr. Rick Wilbur and it changed my life. I changed my major and decided I was going to be a journalist. I wanted to be in magazines. And next thing I knew, I had a new last name and I had a byline. And I was like, you know, my very first article was with my new married name.
12:09
And so, yeah, everything I've ever written has been under Ashley Grant until I started ghost writing, which is, which is kind of crazy looking back and thinking about all that. But, but it's funny. You mentioned that you had to take your name off of the byline whenever you started working with Tampa Bay business journal, because when I started taking my name off the byline is when I finally started making better money.
12:31
And so, you know, I was in the game, the freelance game for like from 2007 to about 2014. And for some reason, like 2014, January 2014 is when ghost writing landed in my lap. Like I wasn't looking for it at all. And I got a call from someone asking if I would write their blog post for them because blogging was becoming a big thing for every business. And they basically like, you know, handed me this offer and I took it because I needed the work.
13:00
And, you know, that was the beginning of, I guess I should say the end, the end of Ashley Grant because everything was becoming all ghost written at that point. And yeah, just, it's kind of crazy how like I was, I was on track to be a social studies teacher and a few blinks later and I'm a writer. Yeah. Isn't it crazy how that happens? I, when I started at USF because I had been kind of, I guess, coaxed by my parents to, to be a doctor, I was actually started at USF with pre-med.
13:33
So for a year and a half I was, I was actually studying, taking chemistry classes and biology classes and, and sort of struggling to keep up with it, struggling to, to maintain decent grades. And it just reached a point I was like, this is too hard. Like this doesn't feel like it's for me. It's like, if I was really that driven to do this, this wouldn't feel like such hard work. It's like, it's, it was, it was, it was an uphill battle basically.
13:59
And so I, I kind of took a step back and realized, you know, what, what, looking back, kind of reflecting on my time in school up to that point, like, what did I excel at? What did I enjoy? And then I would, you know, I kind of had flashes of like, you know, uh, diagramming sentences and be like, oh yeah, I remember that was really fun. And like writing essays and things like that and how that was always the sort of stuff I was just naturally drawn to.
14:22
Uh, and, and then I just shifted into English with, uh, with a focus on technical writing. And uh, and then I just, it just, everything just kind of clicked and fell into place. It's it's, you know, when you're, when you're trying something on and you're like, I don't know, it doesn't fit. It's kind of writing up here and like, this doesn't, it's too tight on the shoulders or whatever. And then you find just the right thing.
14:43
Oh yeah, there we go. That's why, why was it, where was this, where was the size before when I was looking for it, you know? And so it just, it just, everything kind of fell into place from there. And I reached out to the Oracle and then Dundeele, you know, I Dundeele happened. I graduated with my bachelor's, uh, because of the pre-med thing, I, I was a semester late so I graduated with my bachelor's in English in December, 2005.
15:08
So all of this stuff was generally like all of the job stuff I just told you, that was all like 2004 to 2007 in the midst of all that. And then I, you know, I proceeded into my master's and then kind of stopped doing that halfway through just because I was so busy with everything else and, and never, never completed it. So I'm, I'm not a, I'm not technically a master. I'm a mass because I never, I didn't work hard enough to get the tur.
15:33
So that's fantastic. Yeah. I, uh, I was, um, I started college myself in 2002 and then around 2006, like I said, was, was when I was like having my crisis of conscience of, you know, why does, why does everything feel so hard? And it was like, okay, I can either go ahead and graduate or I can get married. And so I got married and then I changed my major. And so, yeah, I definitely feel you on, you know, things, things not feeling right.
16:01
And, um, and writing just, it felt so easy. It felt like what I was supposed to be doing. And, um, my, you know, in 2007 is also when I had my first article come out in the TBT. I, um, I was taking, oh goodness, I can't remember what I was taking some class where basically the professor was like, if you reach out to a couple of publications and you can get your, your, an article published, then we'll give you extra credit.
16:27
And so, you know, I basically started pounding pavement, like trying to get people to publish me. And I called the TBT, I called Jay Cridlin. He was the editor at the time and I called him and I was like, you know, I have, I have a story I want to pitch you because I need this for, for, you know, uh, I need to do this for school. And if I do this for school, then I can get a good grade. And so I'm, I'm counting on you, man, you know, and basically he was like, okay, I'll let you do a story if you'll just quit calling me.
16:56
And uh, and so my first story that was in the TBT was, um, it was an article about Tijuana flats and why their ceiling tiles are all different, like paintings and different colors and things like that. And um, basically it all started with the owner's son. He ran across a tile with paint on his shoes and the owner at the time could not afford to buy more ceiling tiles. And so he's like, you know what? Screw it. I'm just going to put it up on the ceiling.
17:24
And that's what started, um, all the ceiling tiles being painted differently is this little, little kid running across the tile with, with paint on his shoes. And I was like, yeah. And I was like, that is the neatest thing, like getting to learn the background stories of stuff. And so I was like, that's what I have to do. I have to be the person that goes and finds out people's stories and then tells them. And uh, that's actually what led to you and I working together again is I was, I was working for style magazine.
17:50
Um, well, it was called style magazine. It was, uh, it was kind of like done deal in the sense that, um, it was local newspapers, but instead it was magazines. It was a glossy and, uh, it's like those little, um, mags that you would get in your, in your, your mailbox that had, you know, some flyers and things like that, but it would also have advertorials as well. And, um, that led to me working for another magazine that was in Tampa.
18:15
And that's when I was in a position where I was able to hire freelance writers. And I, I remember somehow you and I bumped into each other again and I was like, Hey, you know, I got a freelance gig if you want it. And I don't know if you remember all that, but it was just, uh, you know, it was kind of a wild time where we were writing for the same magazines. And, and, uh, and the next thing we knew we were doing some ghost writing and I was introduced to a client who needed more, more ghost writers and called you.
18:45
Yeah, it's, yeah, it's kind of crazy how our teenagers are always called the coming of age years, but I really feel like it's like the mid twenties where you kind of figure out what the hell you're doing on this planet. Cause I've, all of this is like, yeah, I was born in 1983. So I was like, uh, mid early to mid twenties during all of this that we're talking about. And it's, it's, that's still kind of, you know, led me to what I'm doing now.
19:14
And, and it's, you know, you start to really kind of firm up what your career direction is going to be. Like around that time and, uh, and yeah, that it's weird how we've just kind of keep circling each other as coworkers or collaborators, just like every few years. It's like, oh yeah, Hey, well, here's this, let's, let's work together. And, you know, I really owe you, oh, you a great, you know, great debt of gratitude for, for all of that, because especially with the, uh, you know, especially with the client doing the ghost writing that you just mentioned, just like I had quit my, my, uh, my job, my full-time job here working downtown in Tampa, because it was just becoming a toxic work environment.
19:56
And I had some savings from that. And so I was just like, I've going to just, I have, I was writing for screen rants at the time. That was the only client that I had and they do not spoilers. The pay is not something you can live off of. Right. Um, and I was just like, you know what? I'll work on that. I'll, I'll, you know, rely on my savings while I get other things going. And there were a few that I, that I was able to kind of cultivate over time, but the one that you brought me to was actually one of my first.
20:25
And if I'm like one of my last two, because I was freelance from 2015 until technically mid 2020. Uh, and it was, it was really kind of a major through line. And I, and I really, you know, I owe you a lot of thanks for, for kind of making that connection and recommending me when I was kind of brand new to being a full-time freelance writer. So, you know, that's it's a credit, I think, to how important networking is really in any job in any profession.
20:57
But I feel like, especially in, in creative work, whether that's writing or photography or podcasting or, or filmmaking or whatever it may be, I feel like if you don't have other people to kind of give you that boost, people who are a step either, either way ahead of you, but you know, more lie more than likely just like a step or two above, um, ahead of you and where you want to be. It's, it, it's makes it kind of difficult to impossible to, to get anywhere in it.
21:27
And I, you know, I've seen that with my podcasting as well, that it's, as you know, it's, it's everyone in the world. We're not, we do not, we do not live in a world that is friendly to creative types generally until you prove yourself, you know, and, and they don't want to give you the opportunities to prove yourself unless you have an in with someone to kind of open the door, crack the door open for you and, and invite you inside and be like, Hey, check out this person.
21:55
He's cool. He's with me. You know, it's like, it's like a, it's kind of like a nightclub. Yeah. I have to get, I need someone to help you get through the velvet rope or even like a, what is it? A Kate Hudson in the almost famous. Yeah, I can't I'm with the band. I'm with the band. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a bandaid. That's fantastic. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, and I think, you know, that's so important in any kind of creating creative thing, but specifically to writing it's people want to get, they want you to work for experience.
22:30
I mean, this is something, you know, even better than me, actually. Oh yeah. What is it? I'll pay you in pie paid in experience. It's like, take your pie and shove it up your ass. Yeah. It's exposure. You'll get, you know, and they, and a lot of times they'll, they'll offer you a byline in lieu of pay. It's like, no, no, I need the, you can, that's kind of the, I think the funny part about ghost writing. It's like, no, no, you can keep the byline.
22:54
Give me the pay. Yeah. It's so funny. It's so funny you say that because for a while, whenever I was telling people I was a ghost writer, I said, well, you get the credit, but I'll take the cash. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I love that. So, you know, it's all about relationships. I mean, at the end of the day, it sounds like everything related to what we do, it's all about relationships. And I think that's one of the reasons that I I've, I've truly been so grateful for the people that have been in my, my circle.
23:25
And so, you know, since we're talking about ghost writing and all that good stuff. I'm curious as to what your thoughts on this. I know that now you are getting a byline again, and I am too, and in a lot of ways. Um, cause I am still doing stuff for people that are willing to give me the credit, but so. If you were to start doing this again, why ghost writing? I feel like there's a, there's a lower barrier to entry, I think because, because you're not, because you're not getting that byline in a way, because someone else is taking credit.
23:58
It's like, you have to, I think early on sometimes swallow your pride in order to get, get your foot in. Because when I went freelance initially and you were doing ghost writing, I think I even said to my, my wife. I was like, I don't know if I want to do ghost writing because I like having my name on stuff. Oh, me too. And then it sort of got to the point where I was like, okay, this is hard. Maybe let's, let's give that ghost writing a second look.
24:21
Um, and I, and I think that, you know, ghost writing could be a good way to get your foot in the door. And there are other, I mean, we live in a, the age of the internet, which, you know, you, you and I didn't necessarily grow up with. It's, we live in an age where now you can literally write anything, put your name on it, maybe get canceled if you say the wrong thing. But, but put out a blog, a podcast, a short film, whatever you can put out anything now.
24:50
And claim credit. So I think it's worthwhile early on, if you're looking to be a writer to use ghost writing to get some experience, to get to that point where you can demand a baseline. And where you, where you have that option, if you so choose. And I think that that's really kind of the, you know, it's easy to get stuck on. Well, no, I'm not going to write something unless I can take credit for it. But there's so many more opportunities out there that you would immediately kind of discounting by doing that.
25:21
And it doesn't mean that it has, it doesn't mean that it has to be a forever thing. If it's really something that you don't necessarily feel like you want to stick with, or you're able to find work in other avenues, that's great. But it's, if you're starting out, I think it's, it's important to kind of keep that option open just because people, people will be willing to, to give you the opportunity. And then you can start to do more work and let you kind of prove yourself because they're not risking their reputation by putting your name out there.
25:53
I agree. I agree with everything you just said. Yeah. It's like, it's like, if you're recommending, you're not going to recommend someone, like if you're working at a company and a position opens up, you're not going to refer someone that you don't, that you wouldn't stand up for, that you're not, that that's not going to, that's going to botch the first interview. Right. It's like a被z, it wouldn't be really assertive to anyone at aanska needsn't even be putting a label their name on.
26:18
Just to keep yourself told, why would you move a label onto a company after all this time? So if it wasn't for value and spring in the caused by actions, can I stay, can I hire them and not put66 an effort into it? Do I have authority to do that? That's so right, but I have to put my money into, in my account. So at some point now we've got an asks on the line I am. How do you use that? I don't know what. I don't know what to do.
26:43
No, no, it's okay. It's totally cool. I love everything that you're saying. And it's interesting because, you know, whenever I first started writing and I was getting a byline. You know, It's like all of a sudden freelancers are always the first to go whenever. You know, add revenue dries up that we're always the first to go. And so when I was working for different publications, I was working for, um, for Metro mix, um, which was an affiliate of the channel 10, uh, station in Tampa at the time.
27:15
And there was a guy who, who called me famous Ashley grant, and it became a thing for a while. And it was funny because there was a girl in Sarasota writing for SRQ magazine and her name was also Ashley grant and people used to call me looking for her. And so they'd be like, Hey, are you the Ashley that works for Sarasota magazine? And I'm like, no, I'm the famous one. And so, you know, I definitely feel you on wanting the byline and wanting to be able to tell people like, Hey, I wrote that.
27:41
But at the same time, you know, whenever, when ghost writing landed in my lab, I was like, I was so excited that I was able to finally start making some money. And what's great about ghost writing is that it gives you the opportunity to kind of not just get your own, you know, footing of understanding how to write articles, but also to figure out what the hell you like writing about. Like I can tell you right now that if I were to start a website today, I can, I can name at least 20 different niches that I have no interest in writing anymore.
28:10
And so I think that if someone's trying to get into the writing field, it's a great way to, to kind of get into the industry and figure out like, Hey, do I even enjoy this? Like, let's say, you know, one of the, one of the people that I wrote for a long time ago was a footnote writer. And I had to write a whole bunch of articles about foot fungus. Can I just tell you, it's the nastiest stuff I've ever had to write. And it basically told me I never want to write about foot fungus ever again.
28:34
But at the same time, I learned a lot about, you know, how to craft an article that can actually sell services. And so now you go back into a new niche and you see, you know, what's the best way to write about foot fungus? What is best about it when you can see as a main campus project, you've seen it in concrete numbers, because of like, large spots where people can just write about it, you know, it's obvious they may not even use it that many hours a week.
29:02
You see how you learn about people's Bucket Parts. Who do they are? Who's involved with work? What are their services. And so now you go back into a new niche and you see, you know how you feel about it. And you might find that you do enjoy writing about something else. And so I think that if someone's trying to break into the writing field, for whatever advertisers they happen to have. So I was writing about, you know, a store that, you know, a doctor's office, a store, this, this like car repair place or like whatever, like different things.
29:32
And it gives you the ability to sort of develop that, that, that, that, I'm trying to avoid using the word ability again, to develop that versatility, to kind of develop your own style and fine tune it to whatever the topic may be. And that's something, you know, you learn as an English major, obviously too, but, you know, to your point, you sort of able to gain authority in a way without really, without really having any upfront, is that, you know, you know what I mean?
30:06
Like when you come on for ghost writing, they'll bring you on to write about something that you've never heard of. You learn about it in like, in, on your own, independently, you find out who the client is, you learn about the topic, you become sort of an armchair expert at it. And then you're able to put something together. And because in a way, because you don't have your name on it, it, the, the, the piece comes across that much stronger because you're not being like, hi, I'm this person.
30:32
I don't know about this, but here it is. You know what I mean? So you're leaning on, on the, the client's expertise and you're sort of have to kind of envelop yourself in that and then be able to, it's like learning a language. Right. You know, you go to a, you, you want to learn a language, you go to a country, you, you immerse yourself in it. And then you're like, Ooh, I get it now. I know how to speak. I could speak like, like, like the locals.
30:58
Yeah. And then, you know, you now, at least add that to your skillset. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, I mean, I, I've never tiled anything in my life, but I wrote 20 articles on how to tile a bathroom. So, so I definitely understand what you mean. You know, you, you, you get the opportunity to, to really flex your creative muscles and, and see how you can look at something from different angles. And I think that it's a great way for, for people to, to get into the writing world.
31:26
And so since we're talking about all this, I'm kind of curious if you were to start today, how would you go about being a ghostwriter? I would probably tap into my network, honestly. I'd probably hit you up, Ashley and be like, Hey, who do I, who's the one who needs work? I mean, I think that's, that's really the most important thing. So for people that don't know, that don't have close friends of two decades, who have connections in the ghostwriting world, you know, join Facebook groups, follow people on Twitter, like go to job boards and see, you know, and see postings for ghostwriters, for freelance writers, for whatever it may, whatever your, your expertise or your area of, that you're trying to get in.
32:11
I think that's, that's really what it is. It's, it's, if you're not connected to people that can give you, you know, give you a leg up, get connected to those people. It's the first thing. I mean, you know, I think that goes for any, like I was saying, I think that goes for any creative thing, but for ghostwriting, that's what I would recommend for sure. And if I were to do that now, it would be a lot harder because now I'm married with, with the child.
32:33
So it's like, I don't know if I have as much ability to do that hustle, but that's, I think that's really where it has to start. You know, it's interesting you mentioned, you know, getting on Facebook groups and things like that, because that's actually one of the places I've seen a lot of people looking for ghostwriting leads. And in fact, I should put that in the show notes. There, there are four groups that I'm in where they're constantly posting opportunities for ghostwriting.
33:00
So I'm definitely gonna add that to the show notes for this episode. And, you know, the other thing is people say so many different things, like there are advocates for it and there are people against it, but sites like Upwork and Fiverr, like even though you have a low barrier to entry and you're gonna get some really crappy income in the beginning, I've actually had one of my longest standing clients on Upwork. And I actually get a byline with them.
33:26
And so it's all about like looking at things that you have available to you and seeing how you can work them into what you're trying to do. So I love the idea of starting with your current network, but don't be afraid to reach out to other people as well. Like even if it's a cold pitch, you never know who's gonna give you a yes. And I've even had people reach out to me on LinkedIn who, you know, it's their very first time trying to break into the ghostwriting world.
33:54
And so they'll ask me like, hey, how did you get started? How can I get started? And some of them I've actually sent some leads. So you never know, it's all like we said earlier, it's all about relationships. And if you can just open yourself up to the idea, who knows what could follow? Yeah, and I think that that's identifying those opportunities is so important. Like every position I've had, every job I've had, like most of my opportunities have come from me just throwing it out there.
34:24
And I mean, you know, I'm an introvert, so it's hard for me to throw myself out there, but these fundamental moves professionally that I've made, I started, I was at the business journal as an unpaid editorial intern for like six months. And the reason I got the editorial assistant job is because I was there when the person that was in that role was let go. And I literally went into the editor's office, I'm like, hey, I heard this job is open.
34:49
Would you consider me for it? And that's how I got that job. And I was there for, you know, two and a half years. And my first entertainment writing job was for Screen Rant, as I mentioned. How did I get that? Because the person that used to own the site was running the Screen Rant Twitter account at the time. This is 2012. And I just tweeted out like, man, I really enjoy the work on Screen Rant. I wish I could write for a site like them.
35:15
And he said, send me a DM, let's talk about it. And that's how I ended up writing for Screen Rant. So it's really, yeah, don't be afraid to reach out to people that are in positions that could give you an opportunity, just because you're like, oh, well, you know, they're probably too busy because you never know. So always throw it out there. I think it's, Kevin Smith is a podcaster that I really enjoy and who was really, you know, kind of influenced me to really get into podcasting as well.
35:42
And he quotes, I think Wayne Gretzky or whoever it is, it says, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. And I'm not really even a hockey fan. But the fact that it's so true, you can apply that to anything. You know, you never know what's gonna happen unless you give it a shot. So I think that applies to ghost writing as much as anything else. Well, I know that you're doing a lot of stuff now with an actual byline, but are you still doing any ghost writing or are you still pursuing it at all?
36:10
I am not actually. I have had an opportunities for that, but it's just right now, as I said, with the wife and daughter, they're a big focus, as well as, you know, my full-time job, I work for a site called Showbiz Cheat Sheet. So that's cheatsheet.com and you can find my work there, as well as all the podcasting stuff. So I was like, I have so much going on with Cork At Table Productions that I'm planning like on the DL for later this year, multiple shows focused on movies, because I'm a cinephile, actually, in case you forgot.
36:44
That's fantastic. So it's like, you know, having that creative freedom, I think it's, on the one hand, it's something you have to seek out and try and go after, but on the other hand, some of it, you can kind of start yourself immediately. So I think if people wanna be ghost writers or any kind of writers and they don't have any clips to show, then open a startamedium.com account and start writing things. And that's sometimes some clients or sites or whatever, like all they need are clips to show that you know how to string sentences together.
37:22
Exactly. And I think, you know, just start writing now. Like whatever you have to find a story, put it on your medium account and start throwing it out on social media and you never know what's gonna happen. And if nothing else, you've gained that experience, which means you went a step closer. That's actually one of the pieces of advice I give. And I actually have a course called Ghostblogging Business in a Weekend.
37:44
It's how to start a ghostblogging business in 48 hours. And that's one of the first pieces of advice I give is if you don't have a website of your own where you can prove that you know how to write, at least get yourself an account on medium.com or Quora or Reddit or something. And just do something where you can put some form of writing together that you can show a clip to someone, to a client who can then see proof that, like you said, like you can string sentences together.
38:09
And we were gonna go into a little bit more about how to be a ghostwriter, but I don't want this to become too long-winded of an episode, but I'm kind of curious. We've covered a lot, but if you could say anything to a new person who wants to be a ghostwriter, what would you say? I mean, I think we kind of covered it. Get started now, basically, is what I would say. Like, if you wanna write, trust me, like I said, I'm an introvert, I'm a creative person.
38:37
I know that there's nothing, like it's almost, you're almost more scared at being good at something as you are at failing at it. And it's just a matter of putting something down. I can't tell you how many times, even now, that I get so up in my own head about a creative endeavor that I feel I get stuck in place and it takes me that much longer to just finally get it done. So that's what I would say. It's like, to quote Larry the Cable Guy, get her done.
39:05
It's just, like we said, get started writing. No excuses, just do it, Nike style. Okay, well, I'm gonna give you a cinephile appreciative moment. I'm gonna take you back to old school. Jennifer Love Hewitt, and I know what you did last summer. What are you waiting for? Yeah, exactly. What are you waiting for? And now we all have to go watch that movie again. Well, where can people find you on the interwebs, Mr. Yanis?
39:36
So you can find me on Twitter at Robert Yanis Jr. R-O-B-E-R-T-Y-A-N-I-Z-J-R. You can find out more about my thoughts on movies and my podcasts at crookedtable.com and on Twitter at crookedtable. And is there anything I haven't asked you that you really wanna, you just wanna tell the audience? The audience of 10 people, including my mother. Did I mention that I'm a cinephile? We'll just beat that into the ground one more time.
40:06
You need to put that on a bumper sticker. Hey, bloggy friends, famous Ashley Grant here. Just wanted to thank you so much for listening to this episode with Robert Yanis Jr. And in our next episode, I will be featuring Cathy Dean from Healthy Ambitions. I can't wait to have her on, and I can't wait to share with you all the stuff that she has to share about starting a food blog. So stay tuned for the next one, and we'll catch you next time.
40:32
And until next time, may your page views be high and your bounce rate be low. Thanks for listening. 카메�ame vafto you