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Episode 0Feb 27, 2026· 58:20

How to Land Brand Sponsorships at Any Follower Count with Justin Moore

▸ Show notes from the creator
What if you could pitch a brand sponsorship deal today, even with only a few hundred followers? In this episode, sponsorship coach and Creator Wizard founder Justin Moore breaks down exactly how creators, podcasters, newsletter writers, and entrepreneurs of all sizes can start landing paid brand partnerships — no massive audience required. Justin has personally closed over 600 brand deals, made more than $5 million working with sponsors, and ran an influencer marketing agency for 7+ years. That means he's seen the pitch process from both sides of the table, and he is not holding back here. You'll learn his Sponsorship Continuum framework, why most creator pitches fall completely flat, and what brands actually care about when they decide who gets the deal. Ashley also puts Justin on the spot for some real-time coaching on her own fitness podcast, and the strategy he lays out is something you can steal immediately. Whether you're trying to convert an affiliate deal into a paid sponsorship, land your first UGC contract, or figure out who to even put on your brand pitch list, this episode gives you a clear, actionable path forward. Links from the episode: - Get all the show notes: https://famousashleygrant.com/sponsormagnet/ - Get Justin's book Sponsor Magnet: https://creatorwizard.spiffy.co/a/VZ5uWgzy7a/5944 - Grab your ticket to Sponsor Games: https://creatorwizard.spiffy.co/a/KEZH5l4B75/5944 - Join Justin's next $10K Brand Deal Challenge https://creatorwizard.spiffy.co/a/5J3i2oGowa/5944 - Join Wizard's Guild (Weekly Sponsorship Coaching) https://creatorwizard.spiffy.co/a/LmPIxbv2aV/5944 The links above are affiliate links. This means my podcast will receive a small commission if you order through any of them at no additional cost to you. Affiliate commissions are one of the ways my podcast makes money so that I can create episodes free of charge. If you do purchase anything from my links, I sincerely would like to thank you for your support!
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About this episode
What if you could pitch a brand sponsorship deal today, even with only a few hundred followers? In this episode, sponsorship coach and Creator Wizard founder Justin Moore breaks down exactly how creators, podcasters, newsletter writers, and entrepreneurs of all sizes can start landing paid brand partnerships — no massive audience required. Justin has personally closed over 600 brand deals, made more than $5 million…
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Full transcript
00:09
What's up, my bloggy friends? Famous Ashley Grant here, and I'm so excited about today's guest because if you have ever wanted to land brand sponsorships for your content but had no idea where to start, this episode is for you. Joining me today is Justin Moore, sponsorship coach and founder of Creator Wizard, and he's also the author of the book. sponsor magnet. Justin has been a full -time creator for over eight years alongside his wife, April, and has personally made over $5 million. Yeah, you heard that right.
00:35
$5 million working with brands. He also ran an influencer marketing agency for more than seven years. So that means he has a rare inside look at exactly how brands decide who to partner with and why they pass on everyone else. His mission is to help creators big and small land 1 million paid brand partnerships by 2032. I hope you guys enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed it. I had a blast recording this. He is such an awesome guy. Let's get into it. So welcome to the show, Justin. I'm crazy stoked you're here, if you can't tell already. I just did your, it was the December cohort of all the things. How is it that you got into this space? I mean, I know I've heard the story before, but for people who don't know, how on earth did you become a sponsorship coach? My goodness. So I owe all credit to my wife, actually. So my wife, April, started a YouTube channel in 2009. And I was in medical
01:36
devices at this time, completely unrelated to social media, creator economy. And she just started making videos around. beauty and skincare. And she had a personal interest in that didn't know anyone in her real life that was into that kind of thing. And so I just started making videos for fun. Remember, you got to remember back in 2009, you really couldn't make money on YouTube in particular, like they the partner program was just starting, but it was application only, like it wasn't like it is now, where you could meet just a certain threshold, and then you'd get in. And she in fact, in fact, she got rejected three times for the partner program before she got in. So it very much was like a bumpy start.
02:13
But what happened was brands started reaching out pretty quickly, but not offering to pay her. It was, Hey, we'll give you free stuff. Right. And we were in our early twenties at the time. We had no money. We were living in a studio apartment and free stuff to us was like, let's go, you know, like, well to her, because I was like, I mean, makeup is expensive. So like she was getting a bunch of free makeup. That's awesome.
02:34
Let's go. Right. And so, um, and that was the way it was for years, actually. It wasn't like we wised up after like a, uh, you know, one or two free products. It was like, For years, yeah, send over the free stuff, make a video about it, this type of thing. And so what happened was I decided to go back to school to get my MBA at night after work. And I started taking all these classes around advertising and negotiation and marketing. And kind of the gears started turning. I would see hundreds of comments on all of April's posts saying, oh, April, thanks so much for telling me about this part. I just went to the store and got it. Or I went to their website and picked it up. Thank you. And I came home and I told April one time, I was like. honey, I think you're getting the short end of the stick here. Like a free $30 hair curler is not adequate compensation for the value you're providing to
03:20
these brands. And so I said, the next time a brand wants to work with you, ask them if they have a budget to collaborate. And she's like, there's no way anyone's going to pay me money for this. And I was like, just give it a shot. So sure enough, next brand said, you know, asked to collaborate. Hey, do you have a budget? They said, oh yeah, if you could include us in two YouTube videos a month, we will pay you $700 monthly. And we were like, mind blown explosion.
03:44
Because like $700 was like a massive chunk of our rent at the time. And we were thinking to ourselves, how can we find 10 more brands just like this? Right. And so fast forward over the next 15 plus years, we've done close to 600 sponsorships personally now made over $5 million doing it. And so brand partnerships was always like a really big part of our revenue stream. But In 2015, I was like, you know, I think I might be able to get these deals for other creators, not just for ourselves. And so that led me to I launched a influencer marketing agency, paid out millions of dollars to other creators. And so I had this kind of perspective of both sides were been in the trenches for many years doing deals, ran the agency, been in the boardrooms with these big brands now where they're spending millions of dollars now. And so about six years ago, I decided to just start making some YouTube videos
04:34
about this. How do you like? behave on a phone call with a brand how do you how do you know how much charge a brand how do you pitch a brand what do you say when you try to get on their radar and so this ultimately led me down the road of of coaching other creators um and for a very very interesting model we could talk about it but this this very surprising business uh where i'm doing the sponsorship coaching was born that's so insane because it's like you created something from nothing And that's obviously my favorite part about it because I am a content creator myself. I started dabbling in 2007 when I guess you'd call it pro in 2011 in the sense that I was finally getting paid. And then in 2014, ghostwriting actually landed in my lap.
05:16
And then I was like, oh, wait a minute. Now I'm doing it full time, but I'm not getting any credit, but I'll take their cash. And so the reason I was excited to learn more about the sponsorships is now that I'm trying to step back into the spotlight and put my own name on things. I'm like, OK, how do I get that? How do I get what you got? So the person who's listening to this, who's like, OK, wait, I'm a small brand, Justin.
05:35
Like, OK, five million dollars. Good for you. How the hell do I get started? What would you say to them? It's a great question. And I think one of the biggest learnings having started coaching over the last number of years is sometimes you have the trap of expertise, right? You've been doing something for so long that it's like, it's kind of hard to remember what it was like in the very beginning. But I've been living in this, working with creators day in and day out who are at that. uh place that you're mentioning kind of in the early stages let's say less than a thousand you know subscribers followers audience size whatever um and so i developed this this uh framework that i call the sponsorship continuum that i think would be helpful to kind of chat through right here because i think a lot of people look at sponsorships as um very simplistic it's like okay a brand deal is when a brand pays me
06:25
to talk about them on my platform, on my newsletter, on my podcast, on my social media, whatever. And that's the only way in which I could ever get sponsored. And then they don't even get out the front door because they think, well, I don't have enough followers to justify a brand wanting to invest in me to talk about them, right? And so they just say, okay, well, I guess sponsorships are for people. who are larger or I need to get to 10 ,000 followers or maybe some brand told you one time, oh, we have to have a certain audience size for us to collaborate with you. And so you felt like, well, I guess, I guess that's what everyone brand thinks. And so I, I guess I'll just have to wait. And that is absolute BS. That's not true at all. But you have to look at it from the brand's perspective. Yeah. If you reached out now with, you know, a couple hundred followers or a couple hundred views or downloads on average
07:12
for your posts on your videos or podcasts. Think about it from the brand's perspective. Like it's probably not going to move the needle for them if you were to talk about them on your posts. Right. And so that's not what you should pitch them. Right. And so in the early stages, it's a much more productive approach to do an analysis of the brand's social presence. So I'm going to see, OK, are they do they have a podcast?
07:35
Are they on social media? How often are they posting? Does the content suck, right? Are they running ads or did they have a blog? Did they have a newsletter? So you're kind of doing this analysis to see how they're thinking about content generally to attract customers. And so when you reach out to them, you say, hey, love your brand, but I just did this comprehensive audit of like kind of how you're appearing and showing up on social media. I think you could be telling your brand story in a more compelling way. I would actually love to create some content for you.
08:08
that you can use on autopilot and repurpose on your platform, what's called owned and operated platforms on your social media for your paid advertising to help you stand out. And oh, by the way, go take a look at my website or my podcast or my YouTube channel. That's my portfolio. So what you're pitching is different. And so this is sometimes called UGC or user generated content. Well, you're actually. creating content for the brand to repurpose. So that's at the very beginning of the continuum, right? Where you're small and you're just starting out. You're building up this kind of portfolio to show that you can do good work for brands, right? You can get some testimonials. You can get some case studies under your belt. Then let's say you grow a little bit, Ashley, right? You're now getting thousands.
08:51
You have a couple thousand people in your audience or views on your videos or whatever. What you're pitching to the brand is probably a combination now of... content for them to use. Maybe you're doing, you're repurposing that or syndicating that on your platforms now because that starts becoming meaningful. Maybe you're doing even a little bit of consulting for them now where you're advising them on what their strategy should be. And then now let's say you really grow significantly.
09:16
You're on the far end of the continuum where you're crushing it. You're getting tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of views. Yeah. The thrust of what you can propose or pitch to a brand is now I'm going to talk about you on my platforms because that's going to be really move the needle for you. And so the reason that I share this continuum idea is it's very liberating, I hope, to anyone listening or watching, which is that like there's no arbitrary threshold here of like I need to reach this certain milestone before I can have the permission to reach out to a brand.
09:45
And the other really beautiful thing is that the more narrow your niches. the less, you know, audience size you need to have because there's just less people out there to, you know, for these brands in these niche industries to collaborate. And I can share some stories on that front. But like generally, I just think it's this it's this idea that like there is no arbitrary following that you need to hit. I think that's definitely going to make a lot of people feel better. I know it makes me feel better. I remember. a brand very early on. They're like, no, we won't even talk to you unless you have 10 ,000 followers.
10:16
And I remember I bought this course to try to learn how to get a bunch of followers. And I actually built my Facebook page to 12 ,000 followers, but it still wasn't aligned with who I wanted to pitch. And so it was like, well, what good did that do me? I just kind of wasted my time and energy. But it sounds like what you're saying is you're not just pitching someone like, hey, give me money because I love you. You're pitching a media partnership. Does that sound about right?
10:42
Yes, and really what you're pitching is to help them accomplish a business outcome. That, at the end of the day, is really the only reason that a brand would want to hire you. And I'm glad we've arrived at this because there's a very important concept that I think we should discuss that will help you finally get these brands to open their wallets, which is the phrasing of a lot of outreach that... people you know creators entrepreneurs try to do when they reach out to a brand or an enterprise is they say uh hey look at me i'm awesome i've got all these i've got this cool web series or i've got this podcast or i've got this following um will you i think your brand would be a great fit i've used it for three years uh let's collaborate you know this idea um And that is an absolutely awful pitch. And you know how I know that that's an awful pitch? It's because that's what we did.
11:33
That's exactly what we did starting out, right? And we heard crickets. Until again, I started taking these classes and we got some reps and we understood that brands don't have random piles of money laying around to sponsor people that reach out to them. They just simply don't. But they do have big piles of money laying around that have been already allocated for something called their internal initiatives. their budgets that they've allocated to accomplish those business objectives. And so your job, when you do this type of research that I teach, is to try to infer what's important to them. You can do this in a lot of ways. You see what campaigns they're running. You look at the ads they're running.
12:12
You see what types of campaigns they were running last year. You know, if we're trying to lock down a summer campaign right now, what were they running last summer? They're probably going to run that campaign, another 4th of July campaign, probably going to run that again. And so if you lead with what's important to them, then all of a sudden they say, oh, okay, yeah, Ashley seems like she's going to help us drive more sales for our 4th of July campaign. Let's push.
12:37
Let's slide 10K of that 100K summer budget over to Ashley because she's going to help us, you know, move the needle on that campaign. And so this is a really, really important concept to understand is that you have to lead with what's important to them. What's in it for them? It's not about you. Yeah. It's funny you say that because I was actually working for a client and they said that every single thing they do whenever they're talking to their customers is they have the with them technique. What's in it for me?
13:03
And so they push that down our throats like the whole time. And I get that now and it makes complete sense. But I have to tell you, I haven't told anybody this. Our little secret, you know, between us and everybody listening. I after I did your cohort, I actually went and. that, you know what, I'm ballsy. I've got some followers. I think I could do this. And I pitched a brand and Lord have mercy, it was awful. I will not say what the brand was, but they literally were like, we see no return on investment of any value to do this. Like, what would you do for us that would actually move the deal? And so it's interesting you saying that because I was just like, yeah, I need to go back and reread the book and go through all the videos. First of all, I want to compliment you though, because you did a lot more than what a lot of people do. A lot of people go through the 10K Brand Deal Challenge, this
13:54
live workshop that I do, and they don't do anything. They don't do what you did. And so just the fact that you got, that you sent it and they responded, there's way more than most people get. So I just want to give you your props here. Well, and we had a video call too. And so it was good feedback. Like I recorded it and I was like really listening to it. What's funny is I did get an affiliate partnership with them. So I think that's a win because now I can possibly show them. No, really, I know what I'm doing. Right, right. So in fact, let's actually jam on that if you're okay with it. Let's say you do land an affiliate partnership.
14:25
How can you translate that into something where they're like, okay, not only will we pay you if you get us, you know, income, but we'll also pay you to go get said income. Yeah, so this is a very common complaint that I hear from people, which is like they did what you just did. They pitched the brand and the brand says, yeah, sounds great. Drive us sales and we'll send you 20 % every time you commission, every time you generate a sale. And like, again, think about it from the brand's perspective. I do this a lot. Let's put our hat on, pretend we're the brand. This is the ideal scenario for them. They have this like army of evangelists loudly championing them for free. They have to expend no money until you generate a sale. Meanwhile, you are expending social capital to... make this recommendation, generate content containing the promotion for the affiliate. And so it's a non -trivial exercise
15:15
for you. So I just want to like acknowledge that piece of it. And so like, yeah, of course the brand is going to be like, you know, want that type of setup, but there's a lot of things that the brand is not afforded in an affiliate relationship. Largely, they are not privy to how you are ultimately going to discuss their brand. So you may not be hitting the key messaging of a particular seasonal promotion that they're running. They're not able to probably get that content to repurpose, put on their blog, put on their social media, use for paid advertising. And so that would be the line of conversation that I would have in that scenario. I would say, oh, yeah, sure. I'd love to check out your affiliate program. Out of curiosity, do your affiliates also grant you the rights to repurpose their content for paid advertising? Because that's something that I specialize in. Let me know if you'd like me to
16:00
send over a few investment options for what that might look like. Now, all of a sudden, they're thinking, yeah, actually, no, we don't get the rights to that content. And actually, most of the time that our affiliates talk about us, the content is really not that good or it's not that prominent because they're not really that incentivized to really do a dedicated email blast about it or whatever. Right. And so you say and you say when there is a flat compensation component to this deal, you get more creative. participation in this. Like I'm going to give you a concept for you to approve before I produce this. I'll give you a draft of the content to review before it goes live to ensure that everything's accurate.
16:38
Because again, we want to maximize the repurposability of this asset. So you can get sound bites if it's a video or audiogram, if it's a podcast, whatever. And so again, this is the conversation that you have. with this advertiser when they try to hit you with that. One other anecdote I want to share. So I did an interview on my podcast called the Sponsor Magnet Podcast with an affiliate marketing manager at a brand. And she shared a story about a campaign that they ran. They were allotted a $10 ,000 budget, flat budget for a promotion, a specific promotion that they were running one month. And the very first place that they turned to recruit partners for this flat. campaign was their affiliate pool because they they thought like why wouldn't we just go to our top affiliates they're already users they're already bought in they know everything about the tool we don't have to educate someone
17:28
cold coming in off the street about the value of the tool who's never used it all that let's just go and like you know hire our our people that are already doing great work for us and so uh all this to say like i do think that um in in your situation that you shared for example or just generally like it is a good practice to like Get on the radar of these brands by starting to talk about them, especially if you're already recommending their tool organically. That can be a good tactic to start getting in front of them and helping them understand why they would want to hire you on larger campaigns. Well, then it sounds like if you actually are starting to drive some numbers to them, you can use that as leverage to be like, no, this is why we need to sit down and have a meeting. Well, the trick, though, is that you have to convince them that you're going to be doing something new or different
18:13
for them. OK. On the, on the subsequent campaign, because otherwise they're just gonna be like, no, let's just keep the same setup. Like we have, right? Like this is, this gravy train is great for us. Like just keep recommending us. And so this is the critical thing is that to get yourself out of that precedent of them only looking at you as an affiliate, you have to suggest other things. Okay. Oh, I like that. That sounds so good. I mean, and you make it sound so simple, but, but I'm, but obviously it's thought. So, OK, I'm going to put you I'm going to put you on the spot here and kind of use this if it's all right with you as as a coach for a moment.
18:48
Free consulting. Let's go do it. Let's just say now I get it. Now I get why you asked me. All right. All right. Yeah. I mean, come on. Isn't that why everybody starts a podcast? OK. Reader's Digest version. I had told you that one of the things I started was a fitness podcast. And the the gist of it is I was doing it initially as a like a. a journal of what I was going through trying to get in shape for the first time as a woman in my 40s. It has since turned into more of a movement. So it's not got that many downloads, but I see potential. I see big things. So what would you say to me if I said to you, Justin, I really want to get like a title sponsor or something to get this out there more? What would be the very first thing you would say for this fitness podcast to get people to give it in?
19:36
Okay, so let's hone in on our success metrics first, your success metrics. When you say, get the podcast out there more, what does that mean? Okay, so I don't have that many downloads, but what I am having happen is because people are listening to it, I am getting people sending me DMs and talking to me and saying, because of you, I came to the gym today. Because of you, I downloaded a fitness app. Because of you, I'm finally working out. So that's kind of what feels successful to me is it feels like people are like, finally moving their bodies, which is the whole point of why I started telling people my story. And so that's that's kind of the the gist of it. OK, so what would a title sponsor do to help you get it out there more? Basically, I need the revenue to get it like. advertise to people. Cause I mean, I did a Facebook ad campaign and let's be honest, whenever you're advertising a podcast on Facebook, no one gives a damn because
20:31
they're not listening to podcasts on Facebook. They, you know, you got to get out and do more, I guess, podcast interviews to get out in front of people that are already listening to podcasts. So it's, it's kind of one of those things where I'm looking for the revenue to justify taking time away from the paid work that I'm doing for clients to go and spend that time. to get on other podcasts. Does that make sense? No, it does. It does. Yeah. So it's like I'm trying to find a way of, OK, if I can if I can get the money coming in for the fitness podcast, then I can afford the time to go out and keep spreading the message of why people need to be moving their bodies. Got it. So this is an important conversation, I think, because money or like sponsorship. uh, the, the, the utility of those dollars is going to be different for everyone. Right. So like, I might have a conversation with someone else
21:21
and they say, oh, well, the reason I want a sponsorship is because I really want to get in front of that brand's audience. I want them to send the podcast to their user base, or I want them to, and maybe that's, maybe that's a distribution channel for you. That could be cool. Right. But like, um, sometimes people don't even care about the money. It's like, I want to get in front of that brand's audience or customers because they're like the perfect listener, you know, persona of like who I want. to, you know, so it's more of an impact thing. Um, and so I just, I always like clarifying this point because like the reason, like the way in which we would, uh, devise a sponsor strategy is going to change depending on what your goals are for your project. Right. And so, um, so that's, that's important to realize that the second conversation we need to have is rather than thinking about, let's just check our goals at the door for a
22:09
second here. Like we have impact goals and that in money goals and that's all, all great and well. But if we approach a sponsor with those two things, they don't give a crap. They don't care about you. They don't know who you are. They don't care about your podcast. They don't care about your impact goals. And so they're not going to respond to your pitch. And so I know that that is hard to hear. But like I'm a lot of people call me they're like tough love mentor. But this is the reality is that they are very busy. And it's like, what's the with him, right? It's what's in it for me, what's in it for them. And if you cannot. succinctly articulate that in an outreach email or video um then you're gonna just feel very um demoralized you know trying to trying to land a sponsor and so it's a more productive exercise at this point actually to try to reverse engineer okay what what are brands uh what are the brands that i
22:58
could potentially help that accomplish a business outcome by uh either being featured on my show Or potentially, where my mind is going, creating a turnkey podcast that is kind of like something they own. Or it's the podcast powered by the brand. So going to some sort of fitness, lifestyle, you know, brand, women over 40, some brand that's targeting that customer and say, hey, brand, I see that you don't have a podcast. that you own. I see that you're advertising on some podcasts maybe. But wouldn't it be cool if you could be having more regular conversations with your target demographic, prospective customers, people on your team, you know, and, you know, about why it's important to serve this, you know, clientele.
23:52
I will be the host. I will lead the entire nuts to bolts of the podcast production. You will basically be kind of. the podcast powered by brand. We create, we enter into some sort of licensing agreement for a duration and you flip the bill basically. And, and we, and we kind of have the, uh, you know, a monthly quarterly meeting where we talk about your goals and, and you'll be the exclusive sponsor. So I'll do ad reads for the promotion that's happening for the summer campaign or whatever. Um, and so it's basically a way for you guys to have a podcast without starting a podcast yourself. Um, That's where my mind goes with this idea because it checks the impact box for you. It checks the revenue box for you and potentially opens you up to getting in front of their customers as well. So how does this idea sound? I mean, that sounds perfect. It makes complete sense. But of course, the first thing that comes to mind,
24:43
and I'm sure if anybody's listening to this, they're probably thinking it too. You just said licensing and made it sound like they would own it. So does that mean I can't put it on my channels? Does that mean I don't own the rights? Tell me a little bit about that. I would say that you would want to, I mean, it would depend on what brand, like the conversation with the brand. For the right brand, they might want to buy it from you, potentially. But in a more likely scenario, the setup I'm talking about is you do some sort of kind of like non -exclusive license for them for a duration. So you are the exclusive sponsor.
25:16
You own it, but you are the exclusive sponsor for 12 months. You get the rights to repurpose the content. on your platforms if you want. So it would still go out on your platforms, the podcast, but there'd be like a little, on the cover art, it would be like, you know, your podcast powered by whatever brand. ABC Fitness, we'll call it. Yeah, ABC Fitness. Sure. And they would get the rights to do that for 12 months or so.
25:40
And then you, once that term is about to expire, you go and have another conversation like, hey, do we want to keep this? We want to kick it down the road for another 12 months. Or we can say, hey, that was a cool experiment. And we'll mutually part ways. And that's really what I mean, that it's like a turnkey thing where they're getting to kind of put their stamp, their logo stamped on your stuff. And they're the exclusive sponsor and all that. But again, like these deals can take a lot of different forms depending on what the goals of the sponsor are. But if you want to own the rights, you own the rights and just license it to them. OK, so, OK, please don't make fun of this. I just want to make sure I'm understanding. So it could live on like my YouTube channel, but they get to play with it however they choose to for 12 months. Yeah. And you can and you can slice and dice the rights that they
26:23
get. So it goes on your YouTube channel. You could say you can't. publish this organically anywhere meaning like on your youtube the brand's youtube channels or their instagram or whatever but you get the rights to run paid advertising with it so i'll give you the raw youtube video and then when i do the ad read for you you can take that footage and run like instagram ads with it or something for the term like 12 months or something like that and so or you could say no paid advertising can't do paid advertising but you can repurpose this footage organically so if you want to embed the videos on your website or put it out in your email newsletter whatever like um Yeah, just kind of, again, part of these discovery conversations, if you were to pitch this to a sponsor, is like asking them these questions. What's important to you? Is that something that'd be important to you? Is that? And if they
27:08
say no, like, actually, my wife and I literally right before this call just got off a call with a prospective sponsor and asked them a lot of these similar questions. And I, you know, I laid out the kind of three ways in which we usually work with brands. The first being an awareness -focused campaign where you're looking for maximizing. you know, views and impressions and engagement and just try to spread the word about the brand name? Is it a repurposing campaign where, you know, you want to get all the assets to like do other things with it, paid ads, et cetera?
27:36
Or is it conversion focused? So they want to drive sales or leads or trial signups or whatever. And this brand in particular said, we don't care about awareness at all. We've been around 15 years. A lot of people know about us, but repurposing and conversion, those two sound really good. And you know, you know, the interesting thing about this conversation, Ashley, is that they had never, no one had ever broken it down for them in that way. That those were the three potential goals of working with creators. They've been around 15 years. They've done a little bit with creator partnerships, but like we were the first people to ever lay that out. And now they were so jazzed with this framework because they were like, oh man, this gives us such a firm way to understand how we can collaborate with creators.
28:18
And it took like, the reason I say this is that a lot of people think that every brand has this stuff figured out. Like, oh, they got the marketing teams, the agencies. Like, of course they understand how this stuff works. No, a lot of them either have never worked with creators or not done very, very often. And so you might be the very first person who comes to them with this type of, this line of questioning. Well, how in the heck did you figure it all out? Doing 600 deals myself and thousands through my agency. And I just, honestly, when I sat down to start educating people, I just, I mean, I just had this. very, this, this corpus of experience where I was like, you know, what are the common themes amongst the deals that I've done that have gone well?
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What are the common things amongst the deals that really went bad, badly, um, and started over time, um, honing these, these frameworks. And, and frankly, when I wrote my book sponsor magnet, that really also made me force me to kind of codify a lot of these things. And, and the brilliant part about it actually was that. I now have hundreds of success stories. So through the course that I've taught for many years and just doing coaching, I've been able to test these frameworks out on so many different types of different creators, different niches, different platforms, like it very much is universal. And so I feel very confident that this is like a framework that anyone can use. I love that. And a fun fact, after reading your book, Sponsor Magnet, I actually went back and looked at my own systems and processes in my business. And it was the first time, even though I've been doing, you know, the ghostwriting since 2014,
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it was the first time I actually sat down and wrote my onboarding documentation. Like I was very lucky. I've been very lucky. I've gotten all my clients through like, you know, referrals and things like that. But I was like, okay, he wrote it down because now he has something he can go back to. And it seems so silly to be like, well, duh, that makes sense. But if you never write it down, you never know you need to write it down. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and I find it fascinating.
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So, okay, another thing I'm going to ask you. There's 11 billion companies out there. How the heck do you figure out who to even add to a potential sponsor pitch list? Yeah, so I'll tell you what to not do. Sit in a room all by yourself, probably playing depressing music. And thinking, what brand would ever want to work with me? I don't even know. Like, I'm so small. I don't have a large following. Like, I've got imposter syndrome.
30:52
How do I know this? Because this is what we did, right? All of my examples are stuff we did. Do the rainwater on the window. Yeah, but tiny. Like, I need a tiny, tiny violin sound. I don't have that one. But, like, the other reason is that, again. Think about it from the brand's perspective. If I'm reaching out to them and my only filter of trying to decide a good brand for me is if I have used them, because this is the filter most people use. Ah, I use this tool or I use this product. I've used it for three years. I'm going to say that when I reach out to them. Again, from the brand's perspective, they don't care that you use it. That is table stakes. You know what they care about? Illustrating to them that you, you're. audience has existing affinity for their tool or their product because their your audience is represents a pool of prospective customers for them like you loving it and using
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it is again like of course that's the case but it's like you have to illustrate to them that your audience has high intent for potentially being interested in their tool and so the missing component from this discovery process uh is actually involving your audience in this conversation so doing a survey And saying in your top of your show notes or in your newsletter or whatever and saying, hey, I'm planning out my next six months of content and I would love to learn more about you so I can ensure that it serves you.
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Would you mind asking a series of, you know, answering a series of six or seven questions so I can learn more about you? I, you know, I can see everything on the podcast, you know, demographics, male, female split, geography, ages. Like, yeah, OK, I guess that's helpful. But like, you know, it's more helpful. psychographic information. What type of job do you have? Do you have kids? Are you married? What's keeping you up at night? What problems do you have? What brands and products and services are you using and loving right now to help you solve those problems, right? Imagine if for your fitness podcast, Ashley, you do a survey like that and 35 % of respondents say that they are stay -at -home moms. I don't know. I'm making that up.
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But imagine How much differently you would approach not only content for that type of listener about how to stay fit when you have all these, you know, you're homeschooling or whatever. And, you know, you have little kids running around or whatever. But also brands. You think, oh, I've got a big cohort of like homeschooling, you know, families in my audience. Maybe I should go out there and pitch ABC Mouse or something, which is like a reading tool. Now, is that a tool that you would ever think to pitch for your fitness podcast? If you didn't have that data from your audience? No, not at all. And yet I bet you could think of a pretty creative way to integrate that. Like, Hey, I know you're juggling, you know, you're trying to be healthy while you're juggling, you know, your kids and trying to keep them. Well, guess what? Great. I've got this solution for you here. So you can get in a quick
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15 minute workout while your kid learns to read. Like that's a great ad read, really cool ad read, but only one that you would know to do. If you involve your audience in this, in this conversation, and by the way, think about how much better of a pitch it is when you approach ABC mouse, you say, instead of being like, Oh, I love your tool. I think my audience would be into it. You're saying 35 % of my audience, I have a survey saying that they're having challenges with the thing that your product solves. I mean, it's like a slam dunk. Yeah. And it's interesting you say that because I've actually started asking for like voice notes and people to reach out to me, like with questions and all these things, because I want to get to know my audience more. And it's fascinating some of the questions and responses I've been getting just from that simple tip, like things I never would have even thought of.
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Like, OK, first of all, I can't stand when people try to cram protein powder down your throat. But I do like that some people are like, OK, I have children and I can't get to the gym. So how the heck can I work out at home? And so I actually did an episode about that because I didn't even think about it because I don't have kids. I go to the gym. So it's interesting when you start thinking of it more as a community of audience members rather than just people you're speaking at. One of my favorite uses of AI, I would say, is taking those voice notes, training like a cloud project or on ChatGPT or something and taking the transcripts and dumping, you know, five or six of them in there and being like.
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Give me five themes that are coming through in these in these notes that, you know, I could, you know, that are like pain points or challenges that my audiences are experiencing. And that could you could use those those themes to design your surveys. Not me over here taking notes, just trying to do all that. That is fantastic. Well, OK, I'm going to ask you something. What is something that no one has asked you about sponsorships that you really want to make sure we get out in this episode? Wow, that's a great question. You know, I think one thing that is a common misconception is that my work is only for influencers. Right. It's only it's only for people who are like on the social media platforms, you know, like TikTok, Instagram, YouTube or whatever, because that's where most people think of is like, oh, I'll do a brand deal on those like on social media or whatever. But the thing that I wish I could take anyone by the shoulders
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and just kind of shake them and be like. No, it's not just for influencers like this is for people who have in -person events. This is if you have a newsletter, a podcast, a, you know, a course, a private community, anywhere where you have built up influence over a body of people. You could do sponsorships by allowing brands the privilege of getting in front of those people. And so I think that that. That really is, it's actually probably kind of the next chapter of my education is like, how do I get through to those people? Because there's a lot of people who I go, I'll go to a conference or something.
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And it's kind of like a non -traditional, not like a creator conference. And, you know, someone will ask me, oh, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, I'm a sponsorship coach. And they just make a snap judgment. Like, oh, that's not for me. Like authors, like this is a great example, authors. Like I went to an author event and. Within five minutes of talking with an author, they are completely sold. They're like, I need to do sponsorships.
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Like I've never even thought about before, but like they have a 30 ,000 person email list and the only thing they've ever used the email list for is selling their books. And I said to myself, I said to them, like there's so many other ways in which you can serve your audience with brands and products that are other than your books with challenges that they're experiencing, right? And so it's a big unlock for a lot of people.
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So I think that's really, that's how I'd answer that. I think two things that you said to me just really struck a chord. First, you said a mindset shift that I didn't even think about. You said you're giving the brand the privilege of getting in front of your audience. That is a wild shift that I like, even though you've probably said it before, just hearing you saying it now, it's like, oh, yeah, I'm doing this for you. You know why? Can we let me agitate this?
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Yes. When a brand wants to get in front of a customer right now. What are their only two options? Their only two options are emailing their existing customer lists if they have that contact info or paying Facebook, Instagram, YouTube to run ads. They have to pay those platforms to put their message in front of their prospective customers. And so in what realm of reality is it fair for them to offer free stuff or even affiliate deals?
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to do the same to get in front of your audience when they have to do, when they have to pay Facebook and Instagram and YouTube to do the same. So I just, I wanted to make that point. That's so good. And the other thing that you said, and it kind of just brought this out of me, is not only are you giving the brand the privilege to be in front of your audience, you're showing your audience something that they may never have even thought of or heard of before. So by not getting a brand in front of them, you're kind of doing them a disservice, it feels like. 100 % because Um, I talk, I got a lot of frameworks.
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I'm just warning you here. This, I think my mind thinks in frameworks. I love that though. Let's go. Um, I call it your PSA. It's called your audience first offer framework, which is that a lot of people, uh, let's look at you, for example, like you, your products. So is the things that you're directly selling to your clients, ghostwriting services, for example, is like your product. Right. Um, and there's actually. two other legs to this stool of ways in which you can serve your audience or customers that a lot of people don't think about the second is your sponsors like we were talking about on most of this episode which is like there's probably things challenges that your ghostwriting clients are experiencing that you're never going to really be able to solve or people on your fitness podcast or something that you're never really going to solve with a fitness boot camp that you ultimately run or
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something like that like home gym equipment like that's not going to be something you're not going to get into manufacturing to make equipment like that. Right. So it would make sense for you to partner with a brand like that. The third bucket, though, is one that a lot of people don't think about, which is alliances, meaning you do a survey for your audience and a lot of people come back to you and say, I don't know, I'm having relationship issues or marital issues because I've had health challenges and I'm having conflict with my partner because of that or whatever. That's probably not going to be something you delve into because you're not a therapist or a marriage family counselor or something like that. But maybe you have a friend who's a coach that can help couples with that or something like that. If you know that that's a big, significant challenge for your audience based on the survey, it might make sense
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to do an episode with your friend. And maybe there's some sort of joint venture or affiliate type arrangement where you get their offer, their coaching program, their boot camp or something in front of your people. But again, you'll never know that until you involve them. And so this PSA, your products that you sell sponsors other brands and products. And then alliances, like you said, you're doing a disservice to your audience if you're not thinking through a comprehensive way to serve your audience. Okay. Were you in my voice notes or something? Because I literally, I'm not even kidding you. I literally just got a voice note of someone saying, my partner's not supportive of my fitness journey. How do I work through that? That is, this is weird.
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This is very weird. You sure you weren't listening? I promise. I just, I've been doing this long enough. That is just wild. Like, I mean, you tickled my brain just then. All right. So one of the things that you said that I have to bring up because it's one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you is you said getting sponsorships for in -person events and you are about to have a big in -person event. How the heck are you sponsoring your thing? My goodness. So I've actually been cataloging the entire process publicly.
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Which I love, by the way. My event is called Sponsor Games. It's happening March 15th to the 18th in San Antonio, Texas. And can I just do a quick plug for the event? Because I think it's like a really fun and unique event that I just I'm so proud of it. So, you know, I've been going to kind of creator focused events for over a decade. And there was always only like maybe one or two talks about. brand partnerships. And that never made sense to me because I was like, this is the number one way in which my wife and I are making money. And a lot and like virtually everyone I know is their number one member of stream. Why is there not an entire event focused on sponsorships? And so for a decade, I was hoping someone would like make an event for this. And so finally, I was like, I guess it's me. I guess I'm the person who has to make this event. And so I basically made a list of everything that
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I hate about events. And I decided to do the opposite. So for example, Food. Food always sucks at every event I've ever been to. We're going to ball out on catering. We're going to spend most of the money on catering. One. Second, I hate panels. I hate workshops, keynotes. I'm falling asleep. I'm looking at my emails. What I want to do is I want to get into the hallway. And I want to talk with people and network. How can I make an event where the entire event feels like that? Number three. How can I make this feel outcome focused? So it's not just like I'm spending a bunch of time away from my family, a bunch of money, hotels, airfare, all this.
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And like. some nebulous takeaways at the end. No, like I want to feel like I got some big transformation at the end of the event. And so basically what I did is I took my eight step sponsorship wheel framework and I turned it into eight games that you play to learn and master these concepts. So the pitch game, the negotiate game, right? You're getting up on stage, you're practicing your pitch, you're doing role play as if I was a brand and overcoming objections. And so it's like you very much roll up your sleeves and practice this stuff. And so to your point, like. I wanted to kind of show how the sausage was made, so to speak. And so this whole journey of talking about the event, I have asked the sponsors who I am pitching if they would allow me to record my pitch to them live. And so I've done this three times now. Two have aired on my podcast.
44:10
One is about to air. But I basically like I literally. Went through the whole process. I said, you know, here's what I'm proposing. You know, they gave me objections. I also interspersed the podcast with my own commentary. Like, okay, I said, okay, pause. Here's what they said. Here's what I thought they were thinking at this time. Almost like a reality show kind of thing, you know? And yeah, it's just been such a fun journey to try to pull back the curtain on a lot of this stuff. Because I think at the end of the day, that's what it feels like. It feels so mysterious, enigmatic.
44:40
Like, how do you figure out how much to charge? What are the comps? Like, what do other people charge? And so I think it's been a really fun journey for that sake. And I'm happy to say that, you know, we have locked in four sponsors for the event and one maybe still might close. But it's been a fun ride. What I love about the fact that you've been, like, basically... documenting this in public is you're showing you're putting the proof in the pudding, right? You're showing everybody. I'm not just telling you how to do it. I'm not just a teacher. I'm doing it. And everything that you're teaching is in your awesome book sponsor magnet. Everybody needs to read it. If you're considering sponsorship, I've actually sent your book to so many people because it's like they'll complain to me like, oh, I'm a creator and I need to make money. And then it's like, then read the damn book. Just saying. Oh, and
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we'll leave a link in the show notes so that people can check out the event as well, because they, I want to go to it, but I can't this year. So, but people need to go and I can live vicariously through them and everybody needs to document it. I appreciate it so much. Yes. And then while I still got you here, I actually reached out to you before we sat down and I said, I wanted to ask you from like a, through a pop culture perspective about your business and what it is you do. And you actually said to me that you wanted to talk about the war of art. And so you're the first person that has brought this up. And so I want to know what it was about the war of art that made you made it resonate with you.
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So first of all, anyone who has not read this book, it's like one of my favorites by Steven Pressfield. It's all about the overarching theme is about this concept of what he calls a resistance. And I think that we experience this as creatives, as entrepreneurs in so many different aspects of both our personal and professional life. It's this. embodiment of friction of a for an opposing force that is preventing us from accomplishing these big ambitious goals that we have, whether they're creative projects or otherwise. And this really, really resonates with me because in so many, I have these big ambitious goals like you do in terms of impact and people I'm hoping to touch. But for whatever reason, there always seems like there's these big obstacles in the way for that. And so his One of his whole points throughout the book is that the only way to beat resistance is to just sit down and do the work.
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Yeah, that's it. You have to. It's like he also talks about this analogy of like kind of like going pro, like amateurs and pros. They will just sit down, even if they're not feeling like it, even if they're feeling crummy, even if their head is not in the right place, even if they're just sitting there staring at a blinking cursor for two hours. You sit down and you and you push through it. He believes that writer's block is like not a real thing. Like you literally just have to sit down until even if it is not sounding good or we can go back later and edit it. And so that that I wanted to talk about this because I feel like there are. Once you take control of this narrative, instead of feeling like you're a victim, like, oh, the world is acting against me to prevent me, conspiring against me to accomplish my things. I just feel like it's such a more productive frame to say like, okay, yes, I've
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been dealt this not ideal hand of cards. But the only way to overcome that is to just sit down and methodically figure out how I'm going to get out of this situation or get to the goal that I want to. And so I just think it's a master. masterclass and it's really helped guide my business. I think it's fascinating because I mean, it is really that internal resistance that it stops us from creating and pursuing that meaningful work. And isn't it funny how when you start actually putting in the work, regardless of what you feel, you actually start accomplishing your goals.
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Who knew? Who knew? Exactly. Who knew? Yeah. And so it seems like, like a lot of the key themes were like, Professional mindset beats talent alone. And I love John Lee Dumas. He always talks about, you know, putting in the reps and, and, and I just, it's become a thing for me. It's kind of why fitness has become such an addiction because I mean, six months ago, I couldn't get through a single class without like, just being completely like out of breath. I couldn't do jumping jacks. I couldn't hold a plank and all that, all that stuff. And now because I just kept putting in the reps, even though I didn't think I was a fitness person, I sort of became a fitness person. Who knew that if you just did the work, you could actually do the work? That's really inspirational. And I think there's so many, man, there's so many stories I could tell here. But like one of the most common questions that I get is I do a lot of public speaking and
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people are always like, how did you get to be such a good public speaker? You're so poised. You like don't say um a lot. And there's two things that I share. The first is that I have live streamed pretty much every week for almost five years. And putting in the reps of being able to be dynamic and read the chat and talk about random stuff as things come up is the number one reason why I'm a better speaker is just putting in the reps of like practicing that skill of being able to articulate pretty much or expound on any topic that people throw at me with respect to sponsorships. That's number one. And then the other reason is I hired a coach. I hired a speaking coach to help me learn. Help me learn how to improve my diction and my analogies and the way I move on stage, you know, is like it's all part of like practicing. And this is what pros do. They hire coaches. They hire people who are ahead of them or experts at this. You
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know, you look at any professional athlete, people in the Olympics, like they all have coaches. And so I think that there's this weird. stigma sometimes i think from like taking courses or hiring coaches or things like that especially on on the internet um a weird stigma against that and yet there's no stigma uh on paying a hundred thousand dollars to go to get a four -year education and are you gonna use that degree i don't know maybe not but like somehow that's okay but like hiring so i just feel like there's there has to be this re this shifting of mindset when it comes to getting to where you want my shortcut is always like who can i hire Who can I hire that's already done this? I'll just pay them to give me the shortcut. And so I feel like there's this combination of like really sitting and doing the work and figuring out who you can surround yourself with to succeed. Whenever you are still pitching a brand or still going live,
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I got to know, do you still get scared? You know, I don't think I do. Really? Okay. No, I don't. There are certain things that I get really nervous about when they're very high stakes, for sure. Some of the pitches that I did when I was pitching for my event felt pretty high stakes. But generally, so the reason that I don't get that nervous anymore is because I've adopted this mindset, which is that it's not no. If they say no to me, it's not no. It's not yet. It's just not the right time for them. They don't have the budget. It's not a priority. eventually they'll come back and I'll partner with them because I don't give up. And if not, it wasn't meant to be. Yeah.
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And so I just, I've done this. Part of it again is like putting in the wraps. I've done this enough to know that even if I say no to a brand for a reason, they'll probably come back around two years later. They either. it's now the right time or they're working at another company now. And they always remembered that great interaction that they had with, you know, my wife and I, for example. And so there is the privilege a bit, I think, of reps and volume factors in.
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Now, going back to The War of Art, if you could take just one lesson from that book and give it to baby Justin, what would you say was the most important thing that they need to pull from it? Oh, my goodness. It's that. everyone experiences resistance. I, I, yeah, I, I very much thought I was unique. Like I have this imposter syndrome. Like, can I really do that? Especially man, the book. Wow. That was the, that was the pinnacle of resistance for me. Cause there were so many times where, cause I had a writing block two hours a day. Monday through Friday, I bought a two -hour hourglass, this massive hourglass.
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And I would just go like chomp and I would like turn it over. I would turn on D &D on all my devices and I would just sit in front of the screen for two hours a day. And man, when you don't know what you're going to say that day or you don't know where to go from this section, man, that resistance just eats into you. Is this going to be a good book? Are people going to want to read this? Am I going to lose money? Like, am I going to, you know, like all this stuff just goes on in your head. And the more I have talked about this feeling and articulated it, the more it's so clear to me that like everyone goes through a version of this. And so I think that that was the most comforting part. And if I could go back and tell Justin from many years ago, even before writing the book, you know, like there's comfort in knowing that this is a common thing. Yeah, I think one of my favorite phrases I've ever heard is don't believe everything
53:53
you think. I love that. And that's just kind of what was resonating with me just now as you were talking. Well, Justin, where can people find all of your good stuff online? I'm going to leave show notes and all the good things, but if you had one place that they had to go, where would you send them? I would definitely send it to the book, sponsormagnet .com. We've literally just scratched the surface of everything that I talk about in the book. And if you're interested in coming to the event, that's sponsorgames.com. Really, the book will you can tumble down the rabbit hole if you're interested in getting our support with anything else. Yeah. And what I love about the book is that you didn't hold anything back. It wasn't like, oh, you just read just a little bit and then you have to pay more if you want to know more. But what's cool is you also have the coaching stuff so that you can get the hands on and the I will hold your
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hand and walk you through this. But just the fact that you give all your secrets away. I mean, it's a steal. You're an idiot if you don't buy it. Let me let me say one parting note to anyone listening to this about that. I believe open sourcing, everything you know, is the way to build your moat in the age of AI. Because education or just knowledge wants to be free. And it'll be basically virtually free with any LLM. And so what people will need your support with, though, is execution. Holding their hand. coaching them through it uh in -person experiences and so i really would encourage anyone who's listening to this who's who's wrestling with some of these same fears and uncertainties that i was this is why i open sourced the book because i said these are not state secrets these are things that everyone should know and a very small percentage of these people will probably want to hire me
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for other things and and i'm really glad i made that bet I love that so much. Well, and I'm going to leave you with one last question that I ask everyone. What is one question you've never been asked that you really wish you had? Well, I was in a metal band in high school, Ashley. No, you were not. Versus metal band. And I don't think anyone's ever asked me if I had long hair when I was in the metal band. Did you have long hair when you were in the metal band? I didn't have long hair. Everyone always thinks that I did because there was definitely guys in my band that had, you know, they had the long hair. But I was the I was like the clean cut, like lead singer. We also had a separate screamer. We had a I was a singer and we did a screamer. So this was this was it was pretty intense. That is fantastic.
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Do you still riff on the mic occasionally? You know, like. And speaking of like creative acts and like flow, when I'm writing, when I wrote this whole book, all I listened to is metal. The entire like that is what I listen to when I'm in flow is I listen to metal. And so, yeah, I that's definitely my my genre of choice. That's awesome. My thing is actually when I'm trying to write, I listen to binaural beats and I just I can't have any lyrics because then I start singing along. Yeah. So I just hope to like have the beats. That is wild. Oh, my goodness. Justin, this was such a fun conversation. I appreciate your time so much. Thank you for being here.
57:11
And this is just great. Anything else you want to share before we wrap it up? No, this is so great. Really appreciate you inviting me on. All right, you guys, that's a wrap on today's episode. I hope you enjoyed all the golden nuggets that Justin had to share with you, because honestly, there were so many good ones, right? I mean, it was just. So much fun talking to him. If you're ready to stop leaving money on the table and start landing the brand deals that you deserve, be sure to head over to famousashleygrant .com backslash sponsor magnet to get the show notes for this episode and learn more about Justin.
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As always, thank you so much for tuning in, my bloggy friends. And until next time, may your page views be high and your bounce rate be low.