Transcript
What's up, my bloggy friends? Famous Ashley Grant
here, and I'm so excited about today's guest
because if you have ever wanted to land brand
sponsorships for your content but had no idea
where to start, this episode is for you. Joining
me today is Justin Moore, sponsorship coach and
founder of Creator Wizard, and he's also the
author of the book. sponsor magnet. Justin has
been a full -time creator for over eight years
alongside his wife, April, and has personally
made over $5 million. Yeah, you heard that right.
$5 million working with brands. He also ran an
influencer marketing agency for more than seven
years. So that means he has a rare inside look
at exactly how brands decide who to partner with
and why they pass on everyone else. His mission
is to help creators big and small land 1 million
paid brand partnerships by 2032. I hope you guys
enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed it. I
had a blast recording this. He is such an awesome
guy. Let's get into it. So welcome to the show,
Justin. I'm crazy stoked you're here, if you
can't tell already. I just did your, it was the
December cohort of all the things. How is it
that you got into this space? I mean, I know
I've heard the story before, but for people who
don't know, how on earth did you become a sponsorship
coach? My goodness. So I owe all credit to my
wife, actually. So my wife, April, started a
YouTube channel in 2009. And I was in medical
devices at this time, completely unrelated to
social media, creator economy. And she just started
making videos around. beauty and skincare. And
she had a personal interest in that didn't know
anyone in her real life that was into that kind
of thing. And so I just started making videos
for fun. Remember, you got to remember back in
2009, you really couldn't make money on YouTube
in particular, like they the partner program
was just starting, but it was application only,
like it wasn't like it is now, where you could
meet just a certain threshold, and then you'd
get in. And she in fact, in fact, she got rejected
three times for the partner program before she
got in. So it very much was like a bumpy start.
But what happened was brands started reaching
out pretty quickly, but not offering to pay her.
It was, Hey, we'll give you free stuff. Right.
And we were in our early twenties at the time.
We had no money. We were living in a studio apartment
and free stuff to us was like, let's go, you
know, like, well to her, because I was like,
I mean, makeup is expensive. So like she was
getting a bunch of free makeup. That's awesome.
Let's go. Right. And so, um, and that was the
way it was for years, actually. It wasn't like
we wised up after like a, uh, you know, one or
two free products. It was like, For years, yeah,
send over the free stuff, make a video about
it, this type of thing. And so what happened
was I decided to go back to school to get my
MBA at night after work. And I started taking
all these classes around advertising and negotiation
and marketing. And kind of the gears started
turning. I would see hundreds of comments on
all of April's posts saying, oh, April, thanks
so much for telling me about this part. I just
went to the store and got it. Or I went to their
website and picked it up. Thank you. And I came
home and I told April one time, I was like. honey,
I think you're getting the short end of the stick
here. Like a free $30 hair curler is not adequate
compensation for the value you're providing to
these brands. And so I said, the next time a
brand wants to work with you, ask them if they
have a budget to collaborate. And she's like,
there's no way anyone's going to pay me money
for this. And I was like, just give it a shot.
So sure enough, next brand said, you know, asked
to collaborate. Hey, do you have a budget? They
said, oh yeah, if you could include us in two
YouTube videos a month, we will pay you $700
monthly. And we were like, mind blown explosion.
Because like $700 was like a massive chunk of
our rent at the time. And we were thinking to
ourselves, how can we find 10 more brands just
like this? Right. And so fast forward over the
next 15 plus years, we've done close to 600 sponsorships
personally now made over $5 million doing it.
And so brand partnerships was always like a really
big part of our revenue stream. But In 2015,
I was like, you know, I think I might be able
to get these deals for other creators, not just
for ourselves. And so that led me to I launched
a influencer marketing agency, paid out millions
of dollars to other creators. And so I had this
kind of perspective of both sides were been in
the trenches for many years doing deals, ran
the agency, been in the boardrooms with these
big brands now where they're spending millions
of dollars now. And so about six years ago, I
decided to just start making some YouTube videos
about this. How do you like? behave on a phone
call with a brand how do you how do you know
how much charge a brand how do you pitch a brand
what do you say when you try to get on their
radar and so this ultimately led me down the
road of of coaching other creators um and for
a very very interesting model we could talk about
it but this this very surprising business uh
where i'm doing the sponsorship coaching was
born that's so insane because it's like you created
something from nothing And that's obviously my
favorite part about it because I am a content
creator myself. I started dabbling in 2007 when
I guess you'd call it pro in 2011 in the sense
that I was finally getting paid. And then in
2014, ghostwriting actually landed in my lap.
And then I was like, oh, wait a minute. Now I'm
doing it full time, but I'm not getting any credit,
but I'll take their cash. And so the reason I
was excited to learn more about the sponsorships
is now that I'm trying to step back into the
spotlight and put my own name on things. I'm
like, OK, how do I get that? How do I get what
you got? So the person who's listening to this,
who's like, OK, wait, I'm a small brand, Justin.
Like, OK, five million dollars. Good for you.
How the hell do I get started? What would you
say to them? It's a great question. And I think
one of the biggest learnings having started coaching
over the last number of years is sometimes you
have the trap of expertise, right? You've been
doing something for so long that it's like, it's
kind of hard to remember what it was like in
the very beginning. But I've been living in this,
working with creators day in and day out who
are at that. uh place that you're mentioning
kind of in the early stages let's say less than
a thousand you know subscribers followers audience
size whatever um and so i developed this this
uh framework that i call the sponsorship continuum
that i think would be helpful to kind of chat
through right here because i think a lot of people
look at sponsorships as um very simplistic it's
like okay a brand deal is when a brand pays me
to talk about them on my platform, on my newsletter,
on my podcast, on my social media, whatever.
And that's the only way in which I could ever
get sponsored. And then they don't even get out
the front door because they think, well, I don't
have enough followers to justify a brand wanting
to invest in me to talk about them, right? And
so they just say, okay, well, I guess sponsorships
are for people. who are larger or I need to get
to 10 ,000 followers or maybe some brand told
you one time, oh, we have to have a certain audience
size for us to collaborate with you. And so you
felt like, well, I guess, I guess that's what
everyone brand thinks. And so I, I guess I'll
just have to wait. And that is absolute BS. That's
not true at all. But you have to look at it from
the brand's perspective. Yeah. If you reached
out now with, you know, a couple hundred followers
or a couple hundred views or downloads on average
for your posts on your videos or podcasts. Think
about it from the brand's perspective. Like it's
probably not going to move the needle for them
if you were to talk about them on your posts.
Right. And so that's not what you should pitch
them. Right. And so in the early stages, it's
a much more productive approach to do an analysis
of the brand's social presence. So I'm going
to see, OK, are they do they have a podcast?
Are they on social media? How often are they
posting? Does the content suck, right? Are they
running ads or did they have a blog? Did they
have a newsletter? So you're kind of doing this
analysis to see how they're thinking about content
generally to attract customers. And so when you
reach out to them, you say, hey, love your brand,
but I just did this comprehensive audit of like
kind of how you're appearing and showing up on
social media. I think you could be telling your
brand story in a more compelling way. I would
actually love to create some content for you.
that you can use on autopilot and repurpose on
your platform, what's called owned and operated
platforms on your social media for your paid
advertising to help you stand out. And oh, by
the way, go take a look at my website or my podcast
or my YouTube channel. That's my portfolio. So
what you're pitching is different. And so this
is sometimes called UGC or user generated content.
Well, you're actually. creating content for the
brand to repurpose. So that's at the very beginning
of the continuum, right? Where you're small and
you're just starting out. You're building up
this kind of portfolio to show that you can do
good work for brands, right? You can get some
testimonials. You can get some case studies under
your belt. Then let's say you grow a little bit,
Ashley, right? You're now getting thousands.
You have a couple thousand people in your audience
or views on your videos or whatever. What you're
pitching to the brand is probably a combination
now of... content for them to use. Maybe you're
doing, you're repurposing that or syndicating
that on your platforms now because that starts
becoming meaningful. Maybe you're doing even
a little bit of consulting for them now where
you're advising them on what their strategy should
be. And then now let's say you really grow significantly.
You're on the far end of the continuum where
you're crushing it. You're getting tens of thousands,
hundreds of thousands of views. Yeah. The thrust
of what you can propose or pitch to a brand is
now I'm going to talk about you on my platforms
because that's going to be really move the needle
for you. And so the reason that I share this
continuum idea is it's very liberating, I hope,
to anyone listening or watching, which is that
like there's no arbitrary threshold here of like
I need to reach this certain milestone before
I can have the permission to reach out to a brand.
And the other really beautiful thing is that
the more narrow your niches. the less, you know,
audience size you need to have because there's
just less people out there to, you know, for
these brands in these niche industries to collaborate.
And I can share some stories on that front. But
like generally, I just think it's this it's this
idea that like there is no arbitrary following
that you need to hit. I think that's definitely
going to make a lot of people feel better. I
know it makes me feel better. I remember. a brand
very early on. They're like, no, we won't even
talk to you unless you have 10 ,000 followers.
And I remember I bought this course to try to
learn how to get a bunch of followers. And I
actually built my Facebook page to 12 ,000 followers,
but it still wasn't aligned with who I wanted
to pitch. And so it was like, well, what good
did that do me? I just kind of wasted my time
and energy. But it sounds like what you're saying
is you're not just pitching someone like, hey,
give me money because I love you. You're pitching
a media partnership. Does that sound about right?
Yes, and really what you're pitching is to help
them accomplish a business outcome. That, at
the end of the day, is really the only reason
that a brand would want to hire you. And I'm
glad we've arrived at this because there's a
very important concept that I think we should
discuss that will help you finally get these
brands to open their wallets, which is the phrasing
of a lot of outreach that... people you know
creators entrepreneurs try to do when they reach
out to a brand or an enterprise is they say uh
hey look at me i'm awesome i've got all these
i've got this cool web series or i've got this
podcast or i've got this following um will you
i think your brand would be a great fit i've
used it for three years uh let's collaborate
you know this idea um And that is an absolutely
awful pitch. And you know how I know that that's
an awful pitch? It's because that's what we did.
That's exactly what we did starting out, right?
And we heard crickets. Until again, I started
taking these classes and we got some reps and
we understood that brands don't have random piles
of money laying around to sponsor people that
reach out to them. They just simply don't. But
they do have big piles of money laying around
that have been already allocated for something
called their internal initiatives. their budgets
that they've allocated to accomplish those business
objectives. And so your job, when you do this
type of research that I teach, is to try to infer
what's important to them. You can do this in
a lot of ways. You see what campaigns they're
running. You look at the ads they're running.
You see what types of campaigns they were running
last year. You know, if we're trying to lock
down a summer campaign right now, what were they
running last summer? They're probably going to
run that campaign, another 4th of July campaign,
probably going to run that again. And so if you
lead with what's important to them, then all
of a sudden they say, oh, okay, yeah, Ashley
seems like she's going to help us drive more
sales for our 4th of July campaign. Let's push.
Let's slide 10K of that 100K summer budget over
to Ashley because she's going to help us, you
know, move the needle on that campaign. And so
this is a really, really important concept to
understand is that you have to lead with what's
important to them. What's in it for them? It's
not about you. Yeah. It's funny you say that
because I was actually working for a client and
they said that every single thing they do whenever
they're talking to their customers is they have
the with them technique. What's in it for me?
And so they push that down our throats like the
whole time. And I get that now and it makes complete
sense. But I have to tell you, I haven't told
anybody this. Our little secret, you know, between
us and everybody listening. I after I did your
cohort, I actually went and. that, you know what,
I'm ballsy. I've got some followers. I think
I could do this. And I pitched a brand and Lord
have mercy, it was awful. I will not say what
the brand was, but they literally were like,
we see no return on investment of any value to
do this. Like, what would you do for us that
would actually move the deal? And so it's interesting
you saying that because I was just like, yeah,
I need to go back and reread the book and go
through all the videos. First of all, I want
to compliment you though, because you did a lot
more than what a lot of people do. A lot of people
go through the 10K Brand Deal Challenge, this
live workshop that I do, and they don't do anything.
They don't do what you did. And so just the fact
that you got, that you sent it and they responded,
there's way more than most people get. So I just
want to give you your props here. Well, and we
had a video call too. And so it was good feedback.
Like I recorded it and I was like really listening
to it. What's funny is I did get an affiliate
partnership with them. So I think that's a win
because now I can possibly show them. No, really,
I know what I'm doing. Right, right. So in fact,
let's actually jam on that if you're okay with
it. Let's say you do land an affiliate partnership.
How can you translate that into something where
they're like, okay, not only will we pay you
if you get us, you know, income, but we'll also
pay you to go get said income. Yeah, so this
is a very common complaint that I hear from people,
which is like they did what you just did. They
pitched the brand and the brand says, yeah, sounds
great. Drive us sales and we'll send you 20 %
every time you commission, every time you generate
a sale. And like, again, think about it from
the brand's perspective. I do this a lot. Let's
put our hat on, pretend we're the brand. This
is the ideal scenario for them. They have this
like army of evangelists loudly championing them
for free. They have to expend no money until
you generate a sale. Meanwhile, you are expending
social capital to... make this recommendation,
generate content containing the promotion for
the affiliate. And so it's a non -trivial exercise
for you. So I just want to like acknowledge that
piece of it. And so like, yeah, of course the
brand is going to be like, you know, want that
type of setup, but there's a lot of things that
the brand is not afforded in an affiliate relationship.
Largely, they are not privy to how you are ultimately
going to discuss their brand. So you may not
be hitting the key messaging of a particular
seasonal promotion that they're running. They're
not able to probably get that content to repurpose,
put on their blog, put on their social media,
use for paid advertising. And so that would be
the line of conversation that I would have in
that scenario. I would say, oh, yeah, sure. I'd
love to check out your affiliate program. Out
of curiosity, do your affiliates also grant you
the rights to repurpose their content for paid
advertising? Because that's something that I
specialize in. Let me know if you'd like me to
send over a few investment options for what that
might look like. Now, all of a sudden, they're
thinking, yeah, actually, no, we don't get the
rights to that content. And actually, most of
the time that our affiliates talk about us, the
content is really not that good or it's not that
prominent because they're not really that incentivized
to really do a dedicated email blast about it
or whatever. Right. And so you say and you say
when there is a flat compensation component to
this deal, you get more creative. participation
in this. Like I'm going to give you a concept
for you to approve before I produce this. I'll
give you a draft of the content to review before
it goes live to ensure that everything's accurate.
Because again, we want to maximize the repurposability
of this asset. So you can get sound bites if
it's a video or audiogram, if it's a podcast,
whatever. And so again, this is the conversation
that you have. with this advertiser when they
try to hit you with that. One other anecdote
I want to share. So I did an interview on my
podcast called the Sponsor Magnet Podcast with
an affiliate marketing manager at a brand. And
she shared a story about a campaign that they
ran. They were allotted a $10 ,000 budget, flat
budget for a promotion, a specific promotion
that they were running one month. And the very
first place that they turned to recruit partners
for this flat. campaign was their affiliate pool
because they they thought like why wouldn't we
just go to our top affiliates they're already
users they're already bought in they know everything
about the tool we don't have to educate someone
cold coming in off the street about the value
of the tool who's never used it all that let's
just go and like you know hire our our people
that are already doing great work for us and
so uh all this to say like i do think that um
in in your situation that you shared for example
or just generally like it is a good practice
to like Get on the radar of these brands by starting
to talk about them, especially if you're already
recommending their tool organically. That can
be a good tactic to start getting in front of
them and helping them understand why they would
want to hire you on larger campaigns. Well, then
it sounds like if you actually are starting to
drive some numbers to them, you can use that
as leverage to be like, no, this is why we need
to sit down and have a meeting. Well, the trick,
though, is that you have to convince them that
you're going to be doing something new or different
for them. OK. On the, on the subsequent campaign,
because otherwise they're just gonna be like,
no, let's just keep the same setup. Like we have,
right? Like this is, this gravy train is great
for us. Like just keep recommending us. And so
this is the critical thing is that to get yourself
out of that precedent of them only looking at
you as an affiliate, you have to suggest other
things. Okay. Oh, I like that. That sounds so
good. I mean, and you make it sound so simple,
but, but I'm, but obviously it's thought. So,
OK, I'm going to put you I'm going to put you
on the spot here and kind of use this if it's
all right with you as as a coach for a moment.
Free consulting. Let's go do it. Let's just say
now I get it. Now I get why you asked me. All
right. All right. Yeah. I mean, come on. Isn't
that why everybody starts a podcast? OK. Reader's
Digest version. I had told you that one of the
things I started was a fitness podcast. And the
the gist of it is I was doing it initially as
a like a. a journal of what I was going through
trying to get in shape for the first time as
a woman in my 40s. It has since turned into more
of a movement. So it's not got that many downloads,
but I see potential. I see big things. So what
would you say to me if I said to you, Justin,
I really want to get like a title sponsor or
something to get this out there more? What would
be the very first thing you would say for this
fitness podcast to get people to give it in?
Okay, so let's hone in on our success metrics
first, your success metrics. When you say, get
the podcast out there more, what does that mean?
Okay, so I don't have that many downloads, but
what I am having happen is because people are
listening to it, I am getting people sending
me DMs and talking to me and saying, because
of you, I came to the gym today. Because of you,
I downloaded a fitness app. Because of you, I'm
finally working out. So that's kind of what feels
successful to me is it feels like people are
like, finally moving their bodies, which is the
whole point of why I started telling people my
story. And so that's that's kind of the the gist
of it. OK, so what would a title sponsor do to
help you get it out there more? Basically, I
need the revenue to get it like. advertise to
people. Cause I mean, I did a Facebook ad campaign
and let's be honest, whenever you're advertising
a podcast on Facebook, no one gives a damn because
they're not listening to podcasts on Facebook.
They, you know, you got to get out and do more,
I guess, podcast interviews to get out in front
of people that are already listening to podcasts.
So it's, it's kind of one of those things where
I'm looking for the revenue to justify taking
time away from the paid work that I'm doing for
clients to go and spend that time. to get on
other podcasts. Does that make sense? No, it
does. It does. Yeah. So it's like I'm trying
to find a way of, OK, if I can if I can get the
money coming in for the fitness podcast, then
I can afford the time to go out and keep spreading
the message of why people need to be moving their
bodies. Got it. So this is an important conversation,
I think, because money or like sponsorship. uh,
the, the, the utility of those dollars is going
to be different for everyone. Right. So like,
I might have a conversation with someone else
and they say, oh, well, the reason I want a sponsorship
is because I really want to get in front of that
brand's audience. I want them to send the podcast
to their user base, or I want them to, and maybe
that's, maybe that's a distribution channel for
you. That could be cool. Right. But like, um,
sometimes people don't even care about the money.
It's like, I want to get in front of that brand's
audience or customers because they're like the
perfect listener, you know, persona of like who
I want. to, you know, so it's more of an impact
thing. Um, and so I just, I always like clarifying
this point because like the reason, like the
way in which we would, uh, devise a sponsor strategy
is going to change depending on what your goals
are for your project. Right. And so, um, so that's,
that's important to realize that the second conversation
we need to have is rather than thinking about,
let's just check our goals at the door for a
second here. Like we have impact goals and that
in money goals and that's all, all great and
well. But if we approach a sponsor with those
two things, they don't give a crap. They don't
care about you. They don't know who you are.
They don't care about your podcast. They don't
care about your impact goals. And so they're
not going to respond to your pitch. And so I
know that that is hard to hear. But like I'm
a lot of people call me they're like tough love
mentor. But this is the reality is that they
are very busy. And it's like, what's the with
him, right? It's what's in it for me, what's
in it for them. And if you cannot. succinctly
articulate that in an outreach email or video
um then you're gonna just feel very um demoralized
you know trying to trying to land a sponsor and
so it's a more productive exercise at this point
actually to try to reverse engineer okay what
what are brands uh what are the brands that i
could potentially help that accomplish a business
outcome by uh either being featured on my show
Or potentially, where my mind is going, creating
a turnkey podcast that is kind of like something
they own. Or it's the podcast powered by the
brand. So going to some sort of fitness, lifestyle,
you know, brand, women over 40, some brand that's
targeting that customer and say, hey, brand,
I see that you don't have a podcast. that you
own. I see that you're advertising on some podcasts
maybe. But wouldn't it be cool if you could be
having more regular conversations with your target
demographic, prospective customers, people on
your team, you know, and, you know, about why
it's important to serve this, you know, clientele.
I will be the host. I will lead the entire nuts
to bolts of the podcast production. You will
basically be kind of. the podcast powered by
brand. We create, we enter into some sort of
licensing agreement for a duration and you flip
the bill basically. And, and we, and we kind
of have the, uh, you know, a monthly quarterly
meeting where we talk about your goals and, and
you'll be the exclusive sponsor. So I'll do ad
reads for the promotion that's happening for
the summer campaign or whatever. Um, and so it's
basically a way for you guys to have a podcast
without starting a podcast yourself. Um, That's
where my mind goes with this idea because it
checks the impact box for you. It checks the
revenue box for you and potentially opens you
up to getting in front of their customers as
well. So how does this idea sound? I mean, that
sounds perfect. It makes complete sense. But
of course, the first thing that comes to mind,
and I'm sure if anybody's listening to this,
they're probably thinking it too. You just said
licensing and made it sound like they would own
it. So does that mean I can't put it on my channels?
Does that mean I don't own the rights? Tell me
a little bit about that. I would say that you
would want to, I mean, it would depend on what
brand, like the conversation with the brand.
For the right brand, they might want to buy it
from you, potentially. But in a more likely scenario,
the setup I'm talking about is you do some sort
of kind of like non -exclusive license for them
for a duration. So you are the exclusive sponsor.
You own it, but you are the exclusive sponsor
for 12 months. You get the rights to repurpose
the content. on your platforms if you want. So
it would still go out on your platforms, the
podcast, but there'd be like a little, on the
cover art, it would be like, you know, your podcast
powered by whatever brand. ABC Fitness, we'll
call it. Yeah, ABC Fitness. Sure. And they would
get the rights to do that for 12 months or so.
And then you, once that term is about to expire,
you go and have another conversation like, hey,
do we want to keep this? We want to kick it down
the road for another 12 months. Or we can say,
hey, that was a cool experiment. And we'll mutually
part ways. And that's really what I mean, that
it's like a turnkey thing where they're getting
to kind of put their stamp, their logo stamped
on your stuff. And they're the exclusive sponsor
and all that. But again, like these deals can
take a lot of different forms depending on what
the goals of the sponsor are. But if you want
to own the rights, you own the rights and just
license it to them. OK, so, OK, please don't
make fun of this. I just want to make sure I'm
understanding. So it could live on like my YouTube
channel, but they get to play with it however
they choose to for 12 months. Yeah. And you can
and you can slice and dice the rights that they
get. So it goes on your YouTube channel. You
could say you can't. publish this organically
anywhere meaning like on your youtube the brand's
youtube channels or their instagram or whatever
but you get the rights to run paid advertising
with it so i'll give you the raw youtube video
and then when i do the ad read for you you can
take that footage and run like instagram ads
with it or something for the term like 12 months
or something like that and so or you could say
no paid advertising can't do paid advertising
but you can repurpose this footage organically
so if you want to embed the videos on your website
or put it out in your email newsletter whatever
like um Yeah, just kind of, again, part of these
discovery conversations, if you were to pitch
this to a sponsor, is like asking them these
questions. What's important to you? Is that something
that'd be important to you? Is that? And if they
say no, like, actually, my wife and I literally
right before this call just got off a call with
a prospective sponsor and asked them a lot of
these similar questions. And I, you know, I laid
out the kind of three ways in which we usually
work with brands. The first being an awareness
-focused campaign where you're looking for maximizing.
you know, views and impressions and engagement
and just try to spread the word about the brand
name? Is it a repurposing campaign where, you
know, you want to get all the assets to like
do other things with it, paid ads, et cetera?
Or is it conversion focused? So they want to
drive sales or leads or trial signups or whatever.
And this brand in particular said, we don't care
about awareness at all. We've been around 15
years. A lot of people know about us, but repurposing
and conversion, those two sound really good.
And you know, you know, the interesting thing
about this conversation, Ashley, is that they
had never, no one had ever broken it down for
them in that way. That those were the three potential
goals of working with creators. They've been
around 15 years. They've done a little bit with
creator partnerships, but like we were the first
people to ever lay that out. And now they were
so jazzed with this framework because they were
like, oh man, this gives us such a firm way to
understand how we can collaborate with creators.
And it took like, the reason I say this is that
a lot of people think that every brand has this
stuff figured out. Like, oh, they got the marketing
teams, the agencies. Like, of course they understand
how this stuff works. No, a lot of them either
have never worked with creators or not done very,
very often. And so you might be the very first
person who comes to them with this type of, this
line of questioning. Well, how in the heck did
you figure it all out? Doing 600 deals myself
and thousands through my agency. And I just,
honestly, when I sat down to start educating
people, I just, I mean, I just had this. very,
this, this corpus of experience where I was like,
you know, what are the common themes amongst
the deals that I've done that have gone well?
What are the common things amongst the deals
that really went bad, badly, um, and started
over time, um, honing these, these frameworks.
And, and frankly, when I wrote my book sponsor
magnet, that really also made me force me to
kind of codify a lot of these things. And, and
the brilliant part about it actually was that.
I now have hundreds of success stories. So through
the course that I've taught for many years and
just doing coaching, I've been able to test these
frameworks out on so many different types of
different creators, different niches, different
platforms, like it very much is universal. And
so I feel very confident that this is like a
framework that anyone can use. I love that. And
a fun fact, after reading your book, Sponsor
Magnet, I actually went back and looked at my
own systems and processes in my business. And
it was the first time, even though I've been
doing, you know, the ghostwriting since 2014,
it was the first time I actually sat down and
wrote my onboarding documentation. Like I was
very lucky. I've been very lucky. I've gotten
all my clients through like, you know, referrals
and things like that. But I was like, okay, he
wrote it down because now he has something he
can go back to. And it seems so silly to be like,
well, duh, that makes sense. But if you never
write it down, you never know you need to write
it down. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and I find it fascinating.
So, okay, another thing I'm going to ask you.
There's 11 billion companies out there. How the
heck do you figure out who to even add to a potential
sponsor pitch list? Yeah, so I'll tell you what
to not do. Sit in a room all by yourself, probably
playing depressing music. And thinking, what
brand would ever want to work with me? I don't
even know. Like, I'm so small. I don't have a
large following. Like, I've got imposter syndrome.
How do I know this? Because this is what we did,
right? All of my examples are stuff we did. Do
the rainwater on the window. Yeah, but tiny.
Like, I need a tiny, tiny violin sound. I don't
have that one. But, like, the other reason is
that, again. Think about it from the brand's
perspective. If I'm reaching out to them and
my only filter of trying to decide a good brand
for me is if I have used them, because this is
the filter most people use. Ah, I use this tool
or I use this product. I've used it for three
years. I'm going to say that when I reach out
to them. Again, from the brand's perspective,
they don't care that you use it. That is table
stakes. You know what they care about? Illustrating
to them that you, you're. audience has existing
affinity for their tool or their product because
their your audience is represents a pool of prospective
customers for them like you loving it and using
it is again like of course that's the case but
it's like you have to illustrate to them that
your audience has high intent for potentially
being interested in their tool and so the missing
component from this discovery process uh is actually
involving your audience in this conversation
so doing a survey And saying in your top of your
show notes or in your newsletter or whatever
and saying, hey, I'm planning out my next six
months of content and I would love to learn more
about you so I can ensure that it serves you.
Would you mind asking a series of, you know,
answering a series of six or seven questions
so I can learn more about you? I, you know, I
can see everything on the podcast, you know,
demographics, male, female split, geography,
ages. Like, yeah, OK, I guess that's helpful.
But like, you know, it's more helpful. psychographic
information. What type of job do you have? Do
you have kids? Are you married? What's keeping
you up at night? What problems do you have? What
brands and products and services are you using
and loving right now to help you solve those
problems, right? Imagine if for your fitness
podcast, Ashley, you do a survey like that and
35 % of respondents say that they are stay -at
-home moms. I don't know. I'm making that up.
But imagine How much differently you would approach
not only content for that type of listener about
how to stay fit when you have all these, you
know, you're homeschooling or whatever. And,
you know, you have little kids running around
or whatever. But also brands. You think, oh,
I've got a big cohort of like homeschooling,
you know, families in my audience. Maybe I should
go out there and pitch ABC Mouse or something,
which is like a reading tool. Now, is that a
tool that you would ever think to pitch for your
fitness podcast? If you didn't have that data
from your audience? No, not at all. And yet I
bet you could think of a pretty creative way
to integrate that. Like, Hey, I know you're juggling,
you know, you're trying to be healthy while you're
juggling, you know, your kids and trying to keep
them. Well, guess what? Great. I've got this
solution for you here. So you can get in a quick
15 minute workout while your kid learns to read.
Like that's a great ad read, really cool ad read,
but only one that you would know to do. If you
involve your audience in this, in this conversation,
and by the way, think about how much better of
a pitch it is when you approach ABC mouse, you
say, instead of being like, Oh, I love your tool.
I think my audience would be into it. You're
saying 35 % of my audience, I have a survey saying
that they're having challenges with the thing
that your product solves. I mean, it's like a
slam dunk. Yeah. And it's interesting you say
that because I've actually started asking for
like voice notes and people to reach out to me,
like with questions and all these things, because
I want to get to know my audience more. And it's
fascinating some of the questions and responses
I've been getting just from that simple tip,
like things I never would have even thought of.
Like, OK, first of all, I can't stand when people
try to cram protein powder down your throat.
But I do like that some people are like, OK,
I have children and I can't get to the gym. So
how the heck can I work out at home? And so I
actually did an episode about that because I
didn't even think about it because I don't have
kids. I go to the gym. So it's interesting when
you start thinking of it more as a community
of audience members rather than just people you're
speaking at. One of my favorite uses of AI, I
would say, is taking those voice notes, training
like a cloud project or on ChatGPT or something
and taking the transcripts and dumping, you know,
five or six of them in there and being like.
Give me five themes that are coming through in
these in these notes that, you know, I could,
you know, that are like pain points or challenges
that my audiences are experiencing. And that
could you could use those those themes to design
your surveys. Not me over here taking notes,
just trying to do all that. That is fantastic.
Well, OK, I'm going to ask you something. What
is something that no one has asked you about
sponsorships that you really want to make sure
we get out in this episode? Wow, that's a great
question. You know, I think one thing that is
a common misconception is that my work is only
for influencers. Right. It's only it's only for
people who are like on the social media platforms,
you know, like TikTok, Instagram, YouTube or
whatever, because that's where most people think
of is like, oh, I'll do a brand deal on those
like on social media or whatever. But the thing
that I wish I could take anyone by the shoulders
and just kind of shake them and be like. No,
it's not just for influencers like this is for
people who have in -person events. This is if
you have a newsletter, a podcast, a, you know,
a course, a private community, anywhere where
you have built up influence over a body of people.
You could do sponsorships by allowing brands
the privilege of getting in front of those people.
And so I think that that. That really is, it's
actually probably kind of the next chapter of
my education is like, how do I get through to
those people? Because there's a lot of people
who I go, I'll go to a conference or something.
And it's kind of like a non -traditional, not
like a creator conference. And, you know, someone
will ask me, oh, what do you do? And I'm like,
oh, I'm a sponsorship coach. And they just make
a snap judgment. Like, oh, that's not for me.
Like authors, like this is a great example, authors.
Like I went to an author event and. Within five
minutes of talking with an author, they are completely
sold. They're like, I need to do sponsorships.
Like I've never even thought about before, but
like they have a 30 ,000 person email list and
the only thing they've ever used the email list
for is selling their books. And I said to myself,
I said to them, like there's so many other ways
in which you can serve your audience with brands
and products that are other than your books with
challenges that they're experiencing, right?
And so it's a big unlock for a lot of people.
So I think that's really, that's how I'd answer
that. I think two things that you said to me
just really struck a chord. First, you said a
mindset shift that I didn't even think about.
You said you're giving the brand the privilege
of getting in front of your audience. That is
a wild shift that I like, even though you've
probably said it before, just hearing you saying
it now, it's like, oh, yeah, I'm doing this for
you. You know why? Can we let me agitate this?
Yes. When a brand wants to get in front of a
customer right now. What are their only two options?
Their only two options are emailing their existing
customer lists if they have that contact info
or paying Facebook, Instagram, YouTube to run
ads. They have to pay those platforms to put
their message in front of their prospective customers.
And so in what realm of reality is it fair for
them to offer free stuff or even affiliate deals?
to do the same to get in front of your audience
when they have to do, when they have to pay Facebook
and Instagram and YouTube to do the same. So
I just, I wanted to make that point. That's so
good. And the other thing that you said, and
it kind of just brought this out of me, is not
only are you giving the brand the privilege to
be in front of your audience, you're showing
your audience something that they may never have
even thought of or heard of before. So by not
getting a brand in front of them, you're kind
of doing them a disservice, it feels like. 100
% because Um, I talk, I got a lot of frameworks.
I'm just warning you here. This, I think my mind
thinks in frameworks. I love that though. Let's
go. Um, I call it your PSA. It's called your
audience first offer framework, which is that
a lot of people, uh, let's look at you, for example,
like you, your products. So is the things that
you're directly selling to your clients, ghostwriting
services, for example, is like your product.
Right. Um, and there's actually. two other legs
to this stool of ways in which you can serve
your audience or customers that a lot of people
don't think about the second is your sponsors
like we were talking about on most of this episode
which is like there's probably things challenges
that your ghostwriting clients are experiencing
that you're never going to really be able to
solve or people on your fitness podcast or something
that you're never really going to solve with
a fitness boot camp that you ultimately run or
something like that like home gym equipment like
that's not going to be something you're not going
to get into manufacturing to make equipment like
that. Right. So it would make sense for you to
partner with a brand like that. The third bucket,
though, is one that a lot of people don't think
about, which is alliances, meaning you do a survey
for your audience and a lot of people come back
to you and say, I don't know, I'm having relationship
issues or marital issues because I've had health
challenges and I'm having conflict with my partner
because of that or whatever. That's probably
not going to be something you delve into because
you're not a therapist or a marriage family counselor
or something like that. But maybe you have a
friend who's a coach that can help couples with
that or something like that. If you know that
that's a big, significant challenge for your
audience based on the survey, it might make sense
to do an episode with your friend. And maybe
there's some sort of joint venture or affiliate
type arrangement where you get their offer, their
coaching program, their boot camp or something
in front of your people. But again, you'll never
know that until you involve them. And so this
PSA, your products that you sell sponsors other
brands and products. And then alliances, like
you said, you're doing a disservice to your audience
if you're not thinking through a comprehensive
way to serve your audience. Okay. Were you in
my voice notes or something? Because I literally,
I'm not even kidding you. I literally just got
a voice note of someone saying, my partner's
not supportive of my fitness journey. How do
I work through that? That is, this is weird.
This is very weird. You sure you weren't listening?
I promise. I just, I've been doing this long
enough. That is just wild. Like, I mean, you
tickled my brain just then. All right. So one
of the things that you said that I have to bring
up because it's one of the reasons I was so excited
to talk to you is you said getting sponsorships
for in -person events and you are about to have
a big in -person event. How the heck are you
sponsoring your thing? My goodness. So I've actually
been cataloging the entire process publicly.
Which I love, by the way. My event is called
Sponsor Games. It's happening March 15th to the
18th in San Antonio, Texas. And can I just do
a quick plug for the event? Because I think it's
like a really fun and unique event that I just
I'm so proud of it. So, you know, I've been going
to kind of creator focused events for over a
decade. And there was always only like maybe
one or two talks about. brand partnerships. And
that never made sense to me because I was like,
this is the number one way in which my wife and
I are making money. And a lot and like virtually
everyone I know is their number one member of
stream. Why is there not an entire event focused
on sponsorships? And so for a decade, I was hoping
someone would like make an event for this. And
so finally, I was like, I guess it's me. I guess
I'm the person who has to make this event. And
so I basically made a list of everything that
I hate about events. And I decided to do the
opposite. So for example, Food. Food always sucks
at every event I've ever been to. We're going
to ball out on catering. We're going to spend
most of the money on catering. One. Second, I
hate panels. I hate workshops, keynotes. I'm
falling asleep. I'm looking at my emails. What
I want to do is I want to get into the hallway.
And I want to talk with people and network. How
can I make an event where the entire event feels
like that? Number three. How can I make this
feel outcome focused? So it's not just like I'm
spending a bunch of time away from my family,
a bunch of money, hotels, airfare, all this.
And like. some nebulous takeaways at the end.
No, like I want to feel like I got some big transformation
at the end of the event. And so basically what
I did is I took my eight step sponsorship wheel
framework and I turned it into eight games that
you play to learn and master these concepts.
… 311 more lines