Transcript
What's up my bloggy friends?
Famous Ashley Grant here and I just wanted to chime in before this episode begins and
let you know that this will be just a little bit different than most of the episodes I've
shared recently.
Instead of talking directly related to blogging, it'll be something indirect.
I'm interviewing Stephanie Levitt who is the founder of Pathways Counseling Services and
we're talking all about mental health and entrepreneurship.
So just a quick trigger warning, we will be talking about burnout and suicidal ideation
and a lot of other things related to mental health.
So just wanted to let you guys know that before this episode begins, but there's a lot of
really awesome knowledge bombs and golden nuggets in this episode.
So I hope you enjoy the show.
Well welcome and can you do me a favor and tell me what you do?
Yes, yes.
I'm Stephanie Levitt with Pathways Counseling Services here in Scottsdale, Arizona and I
am a mental health counselor.
We have several people here at the office that we all specialize in our unique niche
and for me in particular, I love working with entrepreneurs.
So I'm excited to be here today.
Well I'm excited to have you.
So tell me what exactly does mental health mean?
Yeah, mental health really is, you know, for me it's a balance of your psychological, your
social, your spiritual life.
It's really where, you know, one affects the other and so having a good balance of all
of that and paying attention to all of that is really what mental health is about.
When one gets off balance, that's where we tend to see the others, it affects the others
as well.
So why is it so important that we protect our mental health?
Oh goodness, well mental health more than ever.
I think with our, you know, the daily influences that we have to media, social media, the news,
just neighbors, even things like, you know, next door, you know, you're seeing constantly
day to day you're being barraged with messages that are scary and, you know, I think that
it's really important to keep your mental health in check and to make sure you're doing
things to protect your mental health so that you can be, you know, you can live your best
life and be there and show up for your family, your friends, your work.
So what does that mean in terms of like as an entrepreneur?
Why is it so important or more important for entrepreneurs to protect their mental health
and how should they go about doing that?
Yeah, absolutely.
Entrepreneurs I think tend to get pretty focused on our work and we tend to lose sight of the
environment around us.
So we tend to laser focus and if, you know, we're all work and no play, I mean, I know
it's a cliche, but it's true and so if entrepreneurs are completely involved in their work and
all aspects of their work and you really need to be when you're, you know, starting out
as an entrepreneur, I can see where the balance is very easily gets derailed and they tend
to forget their mental health.
So I think more than ever entrepreneurs need to focus on that balance.
Now this wasn't in the questions that I sent you before, but I'm kind of curious whenever
it comes to being an entrepreneur, you know, we don't have a boss we have to check in with,
we don't have a day or a time that we clock in, we don't have vacation days, you know,
we're kind of in charge of all our own things.
Do you think that that kind of negatively impacts our mental health and is what causes
us to forget about it?
I absolutely do.
That's a really good point because when you're an entrepreneur, you're working 24-7.
You don't have vacation days, you don't have PTO days where you can just turn off your
phone and relax.
And so I do think that that tends to lead to working all the time.
You're never off and that can really wear somebody down over time.
What would you say is kind of like the best way for an entrepreneur to keep their mental
health in check then?
What I have found works and what I work with with my clients is really keeping in check,
being very mindful of having a balance.
So if they notice that the balance, the first step to anything is being aware.
If you are aware that the balance is off, you can do something to fix it.
If you're not aware that it's off, it's hard to fix.
So being aware that, you know, okay, I've spent, you know, five hours nonstop on work
or in the office, I need to go take a break.
Maybe I'll go take a walk around the block.
Maybe I'll, you know, go grab a coffee at my favorite place.
I'll, you know, talk to my son for a while.
Something that really helps someone keep in check of that balance that's not leaning all
towards work and no play.
What do you say to the person though who says, well, my work is my passion.
I love what I do.
How do you convince them that they need to take a break?
Yeah, that's a good one.
That's a really good one because I get that.
I get that a lot.
My work is my passion.
And so I understand that.
I think initially it can be very exciting being an entrepreneur and starting off and
having all of these roles that you're filling.
But eventually I think that gets wearing and that gets trying.
No matter how exciting it is in the beginning, I think after a while it wears on people.
And again, looking at that balance and looking at, you know, even if it means, you know,
half hour a day broken up into different, different spots, but you're doing something
that, you know, even giving yourself permission to have the time and not guilting yourself
of, oh, I should really be doing something, you know, giving yourself five minutes.
You know, you got to take a shower anyway.
Do it mindfully.
Do a mindfulness while you're in the shower.
Me taking care of yourself like that rather than having those worry thoughts going in
the shower constantly going through your mind.
You might as well take that moment to do a mindfulness.
That makes sense.
So I'm going to go to Dr. Nekisha Hammond.
She's a psychologist based in Brandon, Florida.
And one of the things that she used to say to me all the time is you need to take a five
minute vacation.
It doesn't mean you have to go anywhere.
It doesn't mean you have to spend any money.
Just just sit down and take five minutes to you that belongs to just you.
Yes, absolutely.
And again, giving yourself permission because where I find a lot of entrepreneurs get in
trouble is they start shooting on themselves.
And so they say I should be doing something.
I should not be sitting here and doing nothing.
And it's really not about doing nothing.
It's about taking that five minute mindfulness break.
Maybe you do a grant, a quick gratitude, a gratitude journal, or maybe you just list
gratitude in your mind because when you're doing that, you're focusing on the present
moment, what you're grateful for.
And it's a mini mental vacation.
Would you say that that's kind of like necessary and we should reframe the guilt that we feel
of shooting all over ourselves?
Should we should we reframe that guilt as I'm taking this five minutes so that I can
be better for my job?
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I gave myself those five minutes.
So you got to catch yourself when you go down that road and you start saying I should I
should be doing something.
I should I shouldn't be just sitting here because most entrepreneurs I think feel that
guilt at least initially when they're not used to just taking a little break.
I don't have children myself, but I've often heard it akin to that mom guilt that you feel
like you should be with your kids at all times.
You should be working on, you know, taking care of the house or whatever.
But it's the same whenever your business is your baby, you know.
Oh, yeah.
Now, if you have kids and you're an entrepreneur, that's that's another that's like a double
whammy.
Yeah, I can't even imagine it's guilt upon guilt upon guilt.
So you really have to give yourself a break.
When you're on vacation, you need to really say I mean, I say to myself, I am taking this
day and I'm not checking my phone.
I give myself permission to be present with my son, be present with my family, and I'm
not going to check the phone.
You know, something that you said kind of triggered a memory.
There's a huge YouTuber I follow and his name is Mr. Beast.
I'm sure you've heard of him.
He's he's famous for saying that he will work to the point of burnout intentionally because
he loves to give in to the urge of just working until he's like exhausted.
Then once he burns out, he'll spend a couple of days recharging and then he goes right
back to work.
What do you think about someone like that who intentionally is giving into those urges?
That's interesting.
Well, I think that the fact that he acknowledges what he's doing and he points it out and he's
mindful of what he's doing gives him permission to do it the way he wants to do it.
And so that's what works for him.
And everybody has a different idea of what works for them.
One person's balance may be very different than another person's balance.
And so that's his version of what's working for him.
And that's his balance.
By all means, I'd say go for it.
It's working for him.
I'm so glad you said that because so many psychologists that I have spoken with or counselors
that I've spoken with in the past, they all seem to put everything into boxes.
And that's not how humans are.
We're not in boxes.
We're completely different individuals.
That's what gives us our humanity.
Absolutely.
And that would be the opposite of balance if we put it in a box.
We said it's right versus wrong.
That would be the opposite of balance.
And so 100%, yeah, if you find what works for you and that fulfills you, then that's
it.
You can switch your secret sauce and maybe in five years it won't work for you anymore.
And then you switch it around.
As long as you're doing what your definition of self-care is, that's all that really needs
to happen.
So it's almost giving yourself mental check-ins.
Like you're asking yourself regularly, how am I feeling?
It is.
It is.
Absolutely.
Okay.
So you're giving us permission to talk to ourselves.
Son, talk away.
And then you know what they say, if you're talking to yourself as an entrepreneur, that's
considered a staff meeting.
Oh, that's funny.
I like that.
I like that.
So we've talked a little bit about humanity and individuality and all that stuff.
So I'm curious, for you, what does self-care mean to you?
For me, self-care again is really focusing on when I say I'm going to take off, I don't
feel that guilt.
I really give myself permission to have that break.
And so for me, the break might be sitting relaxing in my backyard with my cup of coffee
and sitting on my lounge chair and noticing the water in the pool, chatting with my son,
going for a bike ride.
We've got these new electric scooters that are so much fun.
And so I really just allow myself to have that time, whether it be an hour, whether
it be the morning I'm going to go and do something that I enjoy.
And it could be anything.
It could be a hobby.
It could be journaling.
Some people may enjoy getting a massage.
Some people for self-care may enjoy a mindfulness.
Whatever it is that does it for you, as long as you do it with the presence of mind of
I'm going to allow myself this time and you work on that piece of it, then you're taking
care of yourself.
Now whenever it comes to those mental check-ins, what kind of signs should we be looking for
that tells us, hey, I need to take a break?
If you notice exhaustion, fatigue, if you notice that your mood has changed, if you
may be a little shorter with colleagues, maybe a little shorter with friends, with your family,
all of those are good, because if you're getting sick a lot, your immune system may be lowered.
I think all of those are really good signs that you need a break.
If you find yourself ruminating at night and you're waking up and you're having a hard
time going to sleep and you have worry thoughts, all of those can be signs that you need some
maybe some time to just take a break.
Yeah, that all sounds really good.
I know for me personally, it's when I get resentful of my clients.
It's so funny because you love what you do, you love showing up, but then you're like,
I don't want to talk to this guy.
It's kind of just like, well, it's probably because I need a moment for me.
I hope you've had your moments because you seem like you're enjoying talking to me.
Oh yes, I love talking.
I love talking like crazy.
I could just do this all day.
If it wasn't up to me, I would probably just do interviews all day and have them all transcribed,
but that's not really how writer's life works.
I don't know, it could be.
You have a very good radio voice and a very good conversation flowing.
I'm enjoying it.
I enjoy that.
Thank you so much.
Let's kind of steer the conversation back.
In your opinion, can mental health care improve your chances of success in business?
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely, because just like you said, when you notice you're starting to feel a little
bit resentful, and I'm sure it's not about the client, it's just that you need a break.
You're not going to show up as your best self.
If I don't have enough sleep and I'm busy staying up till 1 a.m. working on my business,
there's no way I could be a good therapist for somebody the next day.
There's just no way I'm going to be crabby.
I'm going to be cranky.
At the end of the day, I'm a person too.
So absolutely, you're going to be 100% better for everybody that you know, everybody's life
that you touch in business, in pleasure, your family, your friends.
Yeah, it's interesting you say that because Denise Duffield Thomas, she's a money mindset
coach and previously in a past life, she was also a life coach.
When she was life coaching, she said that she would stack her appointments to the point
where sometimes she wouldn't even have time to pee.
I'm like, no wonder you got so burnt out.
You didn't have time to eat, you didn't have time to even look at your husband.
Yeah.
So it can kind of impact all of your life.
It really can.
And I do think that that's something that maybe a lot of entrepreneurs, including myself,
have done and maybe sometimes still do.
I don't share that usually very often, but I do it with the wherewithal and the knowing
that I'm out of here.
It's six o'clock, my last client, I'm going home and I'm going to go and just zone out.
I'm going to have my night and I'm going to be with my family and that'll be my time,
kind of like what Mr. Beast said, that he works, works, works and then he takes a break.
So that works for me.
I like that.
And it's kind of refreshing to hear a mental health professional talk like that because
we kind of forget that they're constantly having to empty their cup every single day
for giving it to everyone else.
So yeah, you need to refill your own cup because you can't give from an empty one.
Exactly.
Yes.
That's a very good point.
So at what point when you're trying to take care of your mental health, do you think that
we can't do it enough on our own and we should seek out mental health support?
You know, I'm not just saying this because I'm a therapist.
I really think that the healthiest people have somebody to talk to.
And sometimes you don't want to talk to your family or your friends or, you know, sometimes
your family remembers, you know, maybe you're having a problem with your relationship or
your spouse or whatnot.
Your family holds that grudge and you just want a neutral party or you want somebody
to kind of help give you some insight.
And so I don't think necessarily people have to, you know, hit rock bottom to go and seek
out mental health.
I think the healthiest people do have coaches, mental health practitioners in their life
and they regularly.
I have plenty of people who come in who just want a monthly checkup.
They come in and they just want to make sure that they're balanced and there's nothing
that they're not seeing that maybe they could use a little or they just for their personal
growth.
But if you do find yourself where, you know, you feel like this is something I really need
help with, perhaps, you know, you feel like your mood has changed.
You're not as fun anymore.
Maybe people say what's wrong.
You notice that you have a negative view versus, you know, your positive or at least neutral
view on things.
That might, those all might be signs that your mental health needs a little, you know,
a little pick me up and it might be helpful to talk to someone.
I like that you specifically called it a checkup because the biggest thing for me is mental
health should be treated just like any other kind of form of health care.
You know, we go to the doctor to get checkups.
We get physicals every year, that kind of thing.
So why not make sure that we're also checking in?
I mean, heck, we even do checkups on our car.
So why can't we do a checkup on our brain and our heart?
Right.
Exactly.
A little too nut.
Yeah, I like that.
So if entrepreneurs need mental health, how should they go about seeking a professional
to help them?
Well, one good way are referrals or, you know, just getting online and doing a little bit
of research and finding somebody that seems to be a good fit.
You can look up somebody who, you know, maybe has a similar philosophy, maybe has good reviews,
is a good place to start and then call the office and see if the person that you're speaking
with, it seems to flow, it seems to be a good fit.
If the practitioner and the therapist that you're going to be seeing, you know, has a
similar, maybe value system or maybe perhaps they specialize in seeing entrepreneurs, that
would be a good way to start.
Yeah, I've often said that it's a lot like dating.
Yeah, it really is.
Yeah, because you seriously are not going to find the perfect one right off the bat.
I mean, I know that whenever I was looking for my own therapist, I went through several
where I was like, nope, not it.
Exactly.
It takes a few sometimes and sometimes you get lucky and right away you know that person
is a match for you, it's a fit.
But sometimes you don't and it takes a few to, you know, experiment and find somebody.
It doesn't necessarily mean mental health failed you or the mental health professionals,
they failed you.
It's just you got to find your match, just like you said.
Well, and speaking of, it's okay to break up with your therapist too.
You can find a new one if you're not happy.
If you're not feeling like they're connecting with you and helping you with what you need.
This is actually something I was just talking to someone recently about.
She's in her 60s and she wanted to have a therapist and the person that they matched
her with was a young 30 something year old and she was fearful that this young woman
would not be able to understand what a woman in her 60s was going through.
So I kind of just told her, I'm like, well, if you don't like it, find a new one.
Absolutely.
And we understand that as professionals, we understand we're not going to be the right
fit for every single person that walks through the doors and we don't take that to heart.
We understand that, you know, people are here to find what's going to work for them.
And if it doesn't work for them, then you got to find somebody who does match.
I agree completely, 1000%.
So now let's say we're in a situation, you know, the entrepreneur is in a startup and
they want to see a mental health professional, but at this moment they can't find it in the
budget.
What would you recommend that they do?
Yeah, yeah.
There are some resources out there that, you know, that can be free.
So that is one way to go.
They can also do some work on their own.
There's a lot of really good self-help books out there that can even get the ball rolling,
especially, you know, maybe looking up something where it's an entrepreneur, you know, written
by an entrepreneur, how to balance your life.
So some psycho education and self-help books are a good way to start.
Makes you also feel that you're not alone by reading that, you know, this was also someone
else's experience.
Meeting of friends and family, if you have that kind of relationship, other entrepreneurs
that might be going through a similar experience, taking up a mindfulness practice, and that's
something that you can just do right away.
There's plenty of free apps out there that are mindfulness-based apps and they're great.
And if you just start that, do five to 10 minutes a day, people start knowing that just
by taking that action sometimes helps them feel better and get out of that rut.
And honestly, at some point though, if you do decide that you really do need to talk
to somebody, you kind of just have to budget for it.
That's honestly my opinion because, you know, there's only so much you can do for free.
And if you kind of get to that point where you're like, I just, I can't do this by myself,
you know, it's having that support that just makes all the difference.
It does.
It does.
And it may not be that you have to do it forever.
You can maybe budget for, you know, four visits and then re-address.
How am I feeling?
Maybe I can go once every other week, somehow get it in.
And that might mean, you know, maybe you have to eat out one less time per week or something
like that.
But, you know, but yeah, it's worth it.
Absolutely.
I agree a thousand percent.
I'm a huge advocate for mental health care and I think that it is so important that people
really like remember that they have to prioritize themselves because if you're not, then you're
not going to do anybody any good.
Right.
Absolutely.
So where can people find you online?
They can find us at Pathways Counseling Services.
So if you just look up our name and it's www.PathwaysCounselingSVCS.com.
We're located in Scottsdale, Arizona and we are right there online.
Hop on Google and hopefully we can meet your needs.
Yeah, I don't know if you and I actually ever discussed this, but the reason that I'm so
passionate about mental health care is because I am actually a survivor of suicide.
My father committed suicide a couple of days after Christmas in 2016.
So I'm forever saying like, if you need a therapist, go get one, please.
No, I didn't.
I didn't know that.
Yeah.
So that's why I'm like, all right, give me all the self-help books.
Give me all the people I can talk to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you hear about it more and more.
You hear about it with kids now and a lot more than you ever did before.
And that's just horrid.
Yeah.
My son's school even the year before he got there in sixth grade, the year before he committed
suicide, a girl in eighth grade is just awful.
It's like more and more.
Yeah.
And of course it doesn't help all the trauma that they're enduring with not just school
shootings but the bullying online and the social media and the belief that you have
to keep up with a certain level.
Absolutely.
And the social media, we never had that.
Yeah.
Thank God.
Halloween.
There's some stuff I'm glad is nowhere to be seen.
I know.
We too, I'm glad we didn't even have cell phones to be honest with you.
Amen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think in high school I had the Nokia, the paperweight.
Yeah.
So.
We had Zebra.
Oh God.
That's how old I am.
What the hell?
That's funny.
I've heard that those are making a comeback though, which is hilarious to me.
Everything makes a comeback.
Yeah.
So like right now Target is selling a bunch of stuff that was like huge in the nineties,
like the bucket hats and the spaghetti straps dresses and the clog shoes.
And even the butterfly clips.
Like even those are coming back.
Oh, how funny.
Oh my God.
I didn't know I was going to feel this old this fast, but here we are.
I know.
Before you know it.
Yeah.
Well, so I know you probably got to get going.
So I just want to kind of wrap things up, but is there anything that I didn't ask you,
you really think I should or something that you really want to make sure it gets out about
mental health care?
Not necessarily.
You know, I do think that it's more accepted that I see mental health care seems to be
more accepted on the East coast and the West coast.
And so I do notice that whereas we have a lot of Midwesterners that come to Arizona
and mental health really, there's more of a stigma around it such that, you know, you
really need to be quote crazy or really, you know, in trouble if you are seeking mental
health.
And so I do see a lot of like children of parents who have come from the Midwest and
that seems to be a bit more of a stigma.
And you know, I just want to let everyone know that, you know, the healthiest of people,
the healthiest of people check in, they check in, you know, they may have somebody at the
gym that they go and they see that helps them through exercising or, you know, they may
go to the gym on their own and it's really no different.
They have a coach, a life coach, they have a therapist.
You know, if you have the resources, great.
If you don't, you know, checking in with your mental health and trying to do self-care and
reading books on it can also work as well.
But just trying to remove the stigma that comes, you know, with mental health and what
that means and it's, you know, I've really seen the healthiest of people have check-ins
and see somebody.
I think that's critical because I mean, we really need to normalize mental health care.
We do.
Absolutely.
And that's why I'm so glad you were here with me today.
Thank you so much for everything you've said.
Thank you.
I've enjoyed talking to you.
I appreciate you.
Thank you.
Well, my bloggy friends, I hope you enjoyed all the insights our guests had to share with
you.
To get the show notes for this and all episodes, go over to famousashleygrant.com backslash
podcast.
And until next time, may your pay fees be high and your bouts rate below.